Just curious if you think the environment plays a part in the overall size of a finch or is it purely genetics?
If all things are equal as far as diet/nutrition/cleanliness/overall care, would 6 chicks crammed in a small flight cage end up smaller than 6 finches being grown out in a large aviary?
Anyone here actually experiment with this at all?
I'm very interested to get anyones input about the subject...there has always been a debate about this in the "fish world"...wondering if it carries over into the "bird world?"
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks!
Tim
Finch size...environment or genetics?
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newlinta
- Callow Courter
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Finch size...environment or genetics?
Tim
Looking for silver, fawn, opal isabel, normal/split javas
and fawn, creamino, normal/split shaft tails
in central PA
3 dogs, lots of poison dart frogs
Looking for silver, fawn, opal isabel, normal/split javas
and fawn, creamino, normal/split shaft tails
in central PA
3 dogs, lots of poison dart frogs
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Nagdabit
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- Location: York PA
Re: Finch size...environment or genetics?
Can't say that we've experimented with it, but after watching our Zebras raise about 100 babies thus far we both have taken note of some things. Our breeding couples run the full gamut as far as sizes go, from our very large CFW hen (Rhosyn) to our diminutive normal hen (Raquel) A couple of our males are on the small side as well.
If I had to put a percentage on it, I would guess it's about 50 / 50 as to who the chicks take after. Rhosyn and her mate (Mel) have produced some HUGE kids but also a number that take after Dad. (Mel's average sized) Raquel and Jacob have only raised two so far (although they currently have a nestful in progress) and both are somewhere between the two size wise. Actually they are basically identical looking normal males.
I tend to think the amount of birds in the clutch is more environmental than the size of the offspring produced. We've been using the small wicker nests thus far and never have had more than 5 birds to a clutch, and that's only happened a few times. Without looking at our records and doing the math, I'd guess that the average clutch size is about three. Might have to experiment when we make up some couples in the near future and put in something bigger to see if it makes a difference.
If I had to put a percentage on it, I would guess it's about 50 / 50 as to who the chicks take after. Rhosyn and her mate (Mel) have produced some HUGE kids but also a number that take after Dad. (Mel's average sized) Raquel and Jacob have only raised two so far (although they currently have a nestful in progress) and both are somewhere between the two size wise. Actually they are basically identical looking normal males.
I tend to think the amount of birds in the clutch is more environmental than the size of the offspring produced. We've been using the small wicker nests thus far and never have had more than 5 birds to a clutch, and that's only happened a few times. Without looking at our records and doing the math, I'd guess that the average clutch size is about three. Might have to experiment when we make up some couples in the near future and put in something bigger to see if it makes a difference.
30+ Zebra Finches (The actual number constantly changes) 2 Rabbits (1 Mini Rex, 1 Dutch), 1 Grouchy Old Fart, and 1 Dang Redhead
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Rayray
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Re: Finch size...environment or genetics?
seeing the fire finches at my place i would defenately say that the ones outside are bigger and more deep in color , altho i have to say that the males are not relatives from eachother and the ones outside can catch all kinda insects and find maybe some minerals they need ... there general condition is better than the ones inside .
i do think that size, color and general health is a mix of enviroment and genetics.
there might be studies on the internet on this , worth to try to find them
ray
i do think that size, color and general health is a mix of enviroment and genetics.
there might be studies on the internet on this , worth to try to find them
ray
my aviary : http://youtu.be/q6R0bwKBlbk
my pictures : http://s711.photobucket.com/albums/ww11 ... %20aviary/
my pictures : http://s711.photobucket.com/albums/ww11 ... %20aviary/
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nixity
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Re: Finch size...environment or genetics?
I don't think it's either/or - I think it is a combination of the two. They work together, basically.
I.e., A bird coming from top bench genetic background will likely falter on a meager diet of just plain dry seed 24/7/365.
Likewise, a faulty genetic bird will probably not be much improved by feeding a fancy diet (and actually, may just get fat :\)
When I first started breeding, I always thought that having big males was important. But the more and more I breed, the more I am seeing a bigger connection with the size of the hen and the size of the offspring (just talking about Goulds here, I have not actively bred any other species).
I justified this because one of my smallest males, who maybe just barely peaks 16g - was paired to an 18g hen on two different occasions, and all of the babies I got were 18+g, with Tang - my OH, being a WHOPPER at 21g, and my silver hen Zero (his sister) who is 20g.
One of my new pairings this year, a 19g male to a 16g hen, resulted in 15 babies that were ALL in the 16-17g range - no large babies at all. So they appear to be following more in mom's footsteps.
I haven't noticed the size of the nest or the size of the clutch having any bearing on it, either. My 20g hen Zero came from a clutch of 6 in a generic 5x5 nest box.. So if the nest was going to have any bearing on size I can't imagine how big she ordinarily would have been
Although I am far behind breeders who have done hundreds and hundreds of pairings - others I have spoken to who have also kept track have noticed this trend with Gouldians.
I do notice that a fantastic diet helps babies fill out nicely in the nest and just being over-all 'better looking.'
This year was the first year I fed sprouts to my pairs religiously, and I have gotten some of the most gorgeous, healthy babies as a result.
I.e., A bird coming from top bench genetic background will likely falter on a meager diet of just plain dry seed 24/7/365.
Likewise, a faulty genetic bird will probably not be much improved by feeding a fancy diet (and actually, may just get fat :\)
When I first started breeding, I always thought that having big males was important. But the more and more I breed, the more I am seeing a bigger connection with the size of the hen and the size of the offspring (just talking about Goulds here, I have not actively bred any other species).
I justified this because one of my smallest males, who maybe just barely peaks 16g - was paired to an 18g hen on two different occasions, and all of the babies I got were 18+g, with Tang - my OH, being a WHOPPER at 21g, and my silver hen Zero (his sister) who is 20g.
One of my new pairings this year, a 19g male to a 16g hen, resulted in 15 babies that were ALL in the 16-17g range - no large babies at all. So they appear to be following more in mom's footsteps.
I haven't noticed the size of the nest or the size of the clutch having any bearing on it, either. My 20g hen Zero came from a clutch of 6 in a generic 5x5 nest box.. So if the nest was going to have any bearing on size I can't imagine how big she ordinarily would have been
Although I am far behind breeders who have done hundreds and hundreds of pairings - others I have spoken to who have also kept track have noticed this trend with Gouldians.
I do notice that a fantastic diet helps babies fill out nicely in the nest and just being over-all 'better looking.'
This year was the first year I fed sprouts to my pairs religiously, and I have gotten some of the most gorgeous, healthy babies as a result.