Help When to mix my Birds

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:15 am

Ok I have 1 set of Society Finches sitting on 4 eggs. Today my aviary came in so once we put it together I moved them to new cage. They had already settled down in the nest for the night so it was pretty easy. I just put my hand over the opening and moved them. Both mom and dad (Gerdi and Tom) have came out and checked out the new surroundings. And they love it. You can tell because they are getting to really fly.

Next I have a Male Zebra Finch. Ok I had gotten a new Zebra Male about 2 weeks or less ago. I named him Zippy because he zips right past my arm each time I get into the cage. And when I get near the cage he freaks out. I have NEVER EVER had a finch do this. So I called the pet store and he said I could swap him out with the one I originally wanted. So I now have the new one in a cage on his own. NO name yet. When can he go into the aviary ?

Ok some of you know I just lost my sweet little Sugar who I hand trained. She was born 5th of May and passed away this morning. So today when I was there to exchange him and get a few items I needed I seen this sweet little girl. I just had to have her. So she is in a 3rd cage. She is a lot younger than the male. Well not sure how old he is but she is young. I would say about 2 months old. Which one should I put in the aviary first and when? Then when do I add the other one? I know they have to be quarantined for a bit on there own. How long? They both look very healthy.

I will get some pics when I get up. Yes I am still up and it is 6am. I'm going to kill over today for lack of sleep since I can't stay in bed all day. I am up so late because I was updating my website page about Sugar. I'm including that link. Our Pets

Thank you in advance.
Mickey Jo

monotwine · Post by **monotwine** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:44 am

flymouse hi, congrats on your new feathered friends. I hope they can ease the pain of losing Sugar.

Question: did you ever treat any of your birds for the basics (quarantine) when you got them? Your current breeding pair included?
Are the birds kept in the same room?

Trouble finds its way into a flock usually with introductions of new birds. Even if a bird seems healthy, the stress of moving and setting up in a new environment can bring latent common (yet killer) diseases to the fore.
These can be prevented. Basics usually needing to be covered are Coccidiosis and parasites (internal and external).
Others knowing how to obtain medication in your part of the world can better advise what products and where to get them.

With regards to the question of introducing your birds. If the Zebras came from the same shop, I'd say it would be safe to put them together and quarantine treat them together (possibly joining two cages together to make it bigger if you worried about space) with the pair sitting on eggs I.e. you can put them all on the same programme, but you have to work it that they are fully treated before the eggs hatch.
Otherwise I'd pull eggs and nest if they freshly laid. Treat all for full quarantine and then introduce them into one cage together with breeding nests etc and let them flourish from a clean slate.

I'd definitely not mix the zebras and societies until a few weeks have passed and you see they don't have whatever poor Sugar had.

Good luck

monotwine · Post by **monotwine** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:46 am

p.s. no harm done keeping the zebras separate either. They'll probably only try breed during quarantine anyhow. Poor young girl could be pushed to parenthood too soon if the male wants what he wants.

Post by **lovezebs** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:17 am

flymouse

Hi Mickey Jo.

I would leave your Society pair and their egg babies alone in the flight cage. Let them incubate, hatch, fledge and wean their kids, without the distractions and interference of new birds.

As to the new kids on the block: Still not clear as to whether the newbies are two Zebras (m & f), or a Zebra and Society.

Quarantine, for new birds, is usually a round three weeks to a month.

If your two new birds had been in the same cage in the store, I would say it's safe to keep them together. I would however, not offer any nests (at all) at this stage, seeing as you say the new girl is very young.

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:19 pm

monotwine wrote: flymouse

Question: did you ever treat any of your birds for the basics (quarantine) when you got them? Your current breeding pair included?
Are the birds kept in the same room?

Hope you find this I am going to put my replies in under each thing. Ok
I screwed up big time with my Zebra Finch I took back. Zippy. I put
him in with Sugar with no quaranteen because he seemed so healthy. I
pray that did NOT kill her. No on current breeding pair either. I got 2
Society Finches, female flew out soon as I put them in there cage right
into our dogs mouth. I was so upset and the male Tom that I still have
was so depressed he sat on perch with head down. They were mates at
PetSmart store. I went the next day got a female from another pet
store closer and put her right in. Yes I know I screwed up BIG time .
They of course accepted each other right off the bat. Sugar WAS NOT in
with parents when I introduced Zippy.

NEW PAIR both came from same shop but different cages and 2 cages in
between them. They are both in different cages now with about 4 foot
in between them. Female is next to avairy. Both came from different
Breeders. Male came from same breeder as Zippy.

Trouble finds its way into a flock usually with introductions of new birds. Even if a bird seems healthy, the stress of moving and setting up in a new environment can bring latent common (yet killer) diseases to the fore.
These can be prevented. Basics usually needing to be covered are Coccidiosis and parasites (internal and external).

What are Coccidiosis and Parasites...What do I treat them with .?

Others knowing how to obtain medication in your part of the world can better advise what products and where to get them.

Do not have anyone near by with meds yet. Ladygouldian.com I just
found on Facebook and she said she would find someone in my area
that was in some sort of club or something. Forgot what she said. To
much info coming in and I am getting lost. I don't know what to do
first.

With regards to the question of introducing your birds. If the Zebras came from the same shop, I'd say it would be safe to put them together and quarantine treat them together (possibly joining two cages together to make it bigger if you worried about space) with the pair sitting on eggs I.e. you can put them all on the same programme, but you have to work it that they are fully treated before the eggs hatch.

Depends on how fast I can get meds here. And with the girl being so
little when is she old enough to go in with male. I won't put a nest in
of course. for awhile.
Otherwise I'd pull eggs and nest if they freshly laid. Treat all for full quarantine and then introduce them into one cage together with breeding nests etc and let them flourish from a clean slate.
Eggs in nest were laid a week ago. About 8 days.

I'd definitely not mix the zebras and societies until a few weeks have passed and you see they don't have whatever poor Sugar had.

Good luck

Ok on to next post. When I am done reading in here I will see what
Lady Gouldin says and post it on here.

Thank you
Mickey Jo

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:59 pm

Ok I promised I would include Lady Gouldines post so everyone could read it. I am writing back to her and will include my letter to her questions soon as I am done with it. So here is her letter to me.

ladygouldian.com Mickey Jo, I took a look - but I went ALL the way back to the beginning. I'm going to comment on many things here and try to mete out where the issue began. I'll make other comments as I see things, too.

It appears you had 5 eggs in the nest and only 3 hatched, yes? If so, there may be a couple reasons. Young birds who've never bred before will often have infertile eggs. But I'd be interested to know if the eggs were actually fertile and the chicks died in the shell. Did you happen to candle the eggs? If so, what did you see in them? If the parents had a latent bacterial issue, it could have passed through the egg shells into the chicks, killing the chicks that didn't hatch and affecting those that did.

Protozoa - Trichomonas & Giardia - are very common in Society finches. In most cases, the protozoa does not affect adults, but may affect the chicks. If the parents had an active case, they'd pass it on to the chicks as they fed them. Once established in the chicks, they'd start to decline in health. Your FINAL dropping photos are consistent with "protozoa poop". You do mention the water spilled over the droppings, so the shape and consistency may have been altered. But the signs are there.

You lose one of the 3 chicks early on and say you don't know what happened. That was the possibly the second sign, but the first hard sign that something was wrong and more than likely more deaths would occur. When one bird dies for no apparent reason, there is something going on that will most likely affect the others. My guess is either a bacterial infection in the parents that was passed to the chicks or a protozoal infeciton.

I would HIGHLY recommend treating the parents and any other birds in the cage for protozoa - using Ronivet-S, Ronivet 12% or Ronex - for ONE FULL WEEK before you plan to allow adults to breed again, ONE FULL WEEK before the eggs are due to hatch, and ONE FULL WEEK AFTER the eggs hatch. The active ingredient in the above products is Ronidasole. It is VERY safe and can be used safely with breeding parents and even very young chicks. Protozoa may be seen in fecal samples IMMEDIATELY after they are passed from the bird, so if you take your birds to the Vet for a check, make sure they use FRESH samples hot out of the bird. Protozoa dies very quickly after leaving the body.

PLEASE do NOT try to breed a Society Finch with a Zebra Finch!!! IF they even attempt to mate, and IF any eggs hatched, they may not live long, or if they did, they would be "mules". Mules muddy the breeding stock and genetic lines. Should someone wish to purchase birds from you to use in their breeding program, they will not want mules or muddied lines!

I don't believe your food choices added to the death of the birds, but your mix almost looks like it is made more for Budgies or small hookbills. It is VERY large and contains seeds that have very little nutritional value. To keep your flock healthy and ensure they are getting proper nutrition, you may want to use a seed mix that has NO colored bits. I see a lot of those bits on the cage paper in many of your photos. That means your birds are tossing them out of the food bowl and not actually eating them. Those bits are supposed to contain vitamins to give the birds a balanced diet, but if they won't eat them, they will be lacking nutritionally. A nutritionally defunct bird will have a weak immune system and will be more susecptible to illness and disease. I would suggest choosing a good FINCH MIX without colored bits, and choose a supplement line to ensure they are receiving proper nutrients. Supplements must be used consistently as directed on the label.

Lastly, you may want to keep medications and emergency items on hand that are created specifically for BIRDS. Human products such as Pedialyte are okay as a stop-gap temporary fix, but they do not have the necessary combination of ingredients for BIRDS. If you plan to grow your flock, you will want to keep items on hand so that you can start damage control immediately. Having the CORRECT products on hand can mean the difference between life or death for your birds.

If you would, please "like" this comment so that I know you've seen it. I didn't know if you'd seen any of my posts until you responded to one this morning, and worried that you didn't get the information in time. Laraine and I work very hard to help folks save their sick birds, and we try to answer as soon as humanly possible. We spend a lot of time answering in great detail. It is very discouraging and frustrating to spend so much time explaining and not know if someone even received the message!

I hope these suggestions help keep your flock healthy. Again, I'm very sorry for your loss. ~k

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:21 pm

My Letter Back to Lady Gouldine

Hello Lady Gouldine

Question what is your name? Don't tell me other person right now. I need to get your name connected with Lady Gouldine in my brain. Lol.

Ok first batch of eggs. I need to edit my website.

5 Eggs laid----4 hatched---not sure when but they were in a small closed nest so it was FULL. But all the sudden at some point I couldn't see but 3 eggs. At some point I found something weird in the seeds looked like a Flat black pieces. I put it in a jar in craft room (not sure why there guess so no one in house would touch it. ) I want to locate my 28 year old girls microscope because I swear it looks like it has a spine and beak. But how could it look freeze dried or like it had been put in a dehydrator machine.

No I didn't candle eggs. I was always taught if you touch the eggs mom will not sit back on the next.

I also didn't know or remember because it has been 24 years since I owned Birds that I am suppose to put boiled crushed eggs in the cage for mom who is laying eggs to eat for calcium and nutrition.

The sister that died was about 8 weeks old. They took forever to start eating on there own. So I waiting a bit longer before removing the 3 girls to there own cage. The sister that died passed within the first 2 days. Her neck had a huge puffed out area that looked like it was filled with seeds.

I no longer plan to mix a Zebra and Society. So no need to worry about me muddying the line. I am not sure though if my new little girl is full Zebra as I have never seen a sugar brown Zebra. I will attach photo.

Ok the food I have been feed every day is as follows.

1 - Universal Blend Nutrient Rich Food for Small birds. (pick on Gouldine Finch on front)
2 - Songbird Treat which I won't be buying again because they only eat out the round seeds leaving the black long ones. And those are what makes up 70% of the container
3 – Spray Millet
4 – Oat Groat Snack
5- Freeze dried meal worms. ( can no handle live and even these I have to spoon in gagging.
6- boiled crushed egg including shell ...........I have also made a mix of Egg, Broccoli tops,. …....
then mix of Egg, Broccoli tops, oat meal, and plain cherrios ground up in mixer. The parents
seemed to really like that. Not the girls so much. The girls were not so keen on meal worms
either.
7- Have tried the following but don't think they liked them much. Fresh Fruit....Strawberries, Orange, apple and banana not all at the same time. Also hubby fed them a worm when it was raining out.
8- I can not find the container as I have used it up. But it did have a finch on the front and was a like fruit and nut mix. They eat it like crazy.

You said: Lastly, you may want to keep medications and emergency items on hand that are created specifically for BIRDS
What and where do I get them.

Thank you.
Mickey Jo

debbie276 · Post by **debbie276** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:46 pm

I just want to jump in here and say THANK YOU for keeping us up to date on what is going on. We can all learn from these postings.

Post by **Sally** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:37 pm

I just want to jump in here and say THANK YOU for keeping us up to date on what is going on. We can all learn from these postings.

I agree completely! Keeping finches (or any pet) is a constant learning experience, it never stops. There is a lot of information on nutrition here: http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/index.php. Most finches aren't big fruit eaters, but they do relish many veggies. Dark leafy veggies such as kale or romaine and broccoli are basics, but you can experiment with many choices for them. Egg food can be as basic as a hard-boiled egg mashed shell and all, or you can branch out with some of the recipes listed here: http://www.finchforum.com/viewforum.php?f=73. You can spend hours each week making up mashes/chops for your birds, or you can keep it simple by offering a little egg food with a side of chopped kale, it's your choice as to how much time you have to spare.

Do check out the articles at the link I have provided though, as finch care and keeping has changed dramatically over the years as we learn more.

Laraine at ladygouldian.com is one of the experts in finch health and is always ready to help others with their questions.

wildbird · Post by **wildbird** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:41 pm

If you have a Petco in your area, they carry Healthy Select finch seed with no colored seeds and has some herbs, a good mix. Also Higgins millet, egg food, mineral grit, and greens are very good which can be bought at PetSuperMarket. Don't forget to have cuttlebone available. Check out the topic on diets on this forum.

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:56 am

Thanks everyone. Well Laraine at ladygouldian.com wrote me another LONG LONG LONG message. I am so over whelmed. She sent me a list of like 10 medicines and such I need to keep on hand. I do plan on getting meds but I can't buy all of them the first order. Especially since I just bought an avairy and boy was it costly. I'm including pics. Then will post her LONG message if you all think I should. Ok her are pics of my new little girl Lolita (Lola) who I am now worried about since reading Laraine's post because Lola sleeps in her feed dish and eats a lot. But her cage doesn't have a perch at this time. I did have a swing I put in and a tiny side perch which so far NO ONE seems to want to sit on. Still have no idea what to name my male.

Well I scrolled down and there isn't the area to add photos like there usually is so I guess will have to put them up on my web sit. Well guess when you hit edit it comes up. Also including photo of the cages both of hem are in and where they are located to the BIG ONE. lol

Thanks everyone.

Mickey Jo

debbie276 · Post by **debbie276** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:07 am

Very pretty birds

Glad things are working out

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:16 am

Well I was going to ask this question and then seen this title opened it and seen it was mine. LOL

I got my new Zebra Finches the 1st of Sept. 2015.

LadyGouldian wanted me to not start any medications yet other than vitamins. She said it was very important to get my nutritian right first.

I bought them better seed. And Hearty Bird Vitamin & Mineral Formula. They have been on both for about 2 weeks now. Seems the Society Finches droppings are looking better. But non 100%

Will show pics when I go to bed and get back up. Oh no it is 5am. No wonder I feel so terrible. Up way to late.

Ok anyways I want to put my two newbies together soon as someone tells me it is ok. Ok I can't even think straight. I know I had something new to say. lol So night for now.

flymouse · Post by **flymouse** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:11 pm

Ok a little late on this. But forgot to take pics until last night. The First 3 are Zippys my Male. Well I can only get 2 pics to load. Remember Zippy and Lola have been under Quarantee since 1 sept. I want to know if I can put them in with each other now. Sending her poop samples next.