Calcium

[tcook1]

I have read that one way to get calcium into a Zebra Finches' diet is to hard boil an egg, microwave the egg shell for 4 minutes, then give the birds the shell. Is this good information? If so, how frequently should I do this?

[Sojourner]

tcook1

Here's what I do to make SURE my guys have access to calcium at all times.

I have 4 sources of calcium in the cage at all times.

1) a cuttlebone
2) a mineral block - you have to knock the corners off and rough it up a bit, otherwise its too hard for their bills
3) a treat cup full of the blue ABBA Mineral Mix (which you need anyway, or something like it)
4) a treat cup full of crushed egg shells.

They need to have this in their cage freely available 24/7. Its not something you just give them once in awhile. They may ignore one or several of these at any given time but DO NOT remove them (except to dispose if they get dirty/pooped on). They will be there when they are needed. My guys totally ignored their crushed egg shell for over a year then suddenly gobbled it down. So don't just decide they're not and will never use a particular source because when they need it, they need it right then.

In addition, in order to make sure they can utilize their calcium, I use Oasis VitaDrops in their water. Again, this is something they need access to all the time. The VitaDrops have vitamin D3, which is needed to process calcium (among other things). Finches normally make their own D3, but that requires lots of natural sunlight which caged birds inside a house do not get enough of even if they are sitting right in a window - because window glass is made to filter out the specific wavelengths birds need to make the D3.

There are artificial lights that purport to facilitate this process in place of sunlight but they are of dubious utility. For one thing, the bulbs stop producing different wavelengths of light as they age and there is no way, without lab test equipment, to know if the bulbs are still "good" for this or not because its not visible to the human eye. Plus other reasons. So I do NOT rely on artificial lighting for this either.

Any vitamin mix that has D3 in it would be fine, doesn't have to be Oasis. However it should be a vitamin supplement that goes in the water and not dry powder you sprinkle over their food. The "sprinkle on their food" type of vitamin cannot be calibrated - eg you can't ever be sure that just because you sprinkled it on some seed or even mixed it in a mash just how much the birds are getting.

However "thirst" is pretty well understood so when you mix it in their water, sure, the daily intake will vary a bit, but you can be confident that overall they are getting enough and not too much.

In addition, I use only silos for water - the tube thingies - because that way they won't try to take a bath in their drinking water, it keeps it cleaner, they are less likely to splash it out, and it takes up less space inside the cage. My guys will still splash it out if I forget to give them a bath at least 2 or 3 times a week.

Slip a kid-size sock over the tube if you experience problems with algae growth but I've never seen that myself. Covering the tube with a sock will keep the light out and put an end to that problem if it occurs. It does make it harder to monitor the water level though so you'll have to make sure you remember to pull the sock up every day and check the level, or get some of the tinted silos that purport to block out the light that would make the algae grow. The water silos I like don't come in a tint, but that's ok for me since I have never had an algae problem.

There is nothing wrong with doing what you suggest, but it is not sufficient by itself.

I don't make egg food - with only the 2 finches its much more convenient for me to buy the Cece commercial dry egg food - but I do save shells from baking or making breakfast. I rinse immediately, microwave (only for a couple minutes but I would guess that depends on the strength of your microwave), and crush with the back of a spoon like you would for your human child should you need to give him/her a pill.

There is a recent post somewhere (can't remember where but I just read it yesterday) about different ways to easily crush egg shells for your birds.

You could also buy HATCHED! commercial crushed egg shell but IMO this product is stupidly expensive when you can crush a few egg shells up for free. YMMV, I'm on a fixed income.

Another potential source of calcium is oyster shell for chickens (available at any feed store). Comes in 25 lb to 50 lb bags but is super duper cheap in those quantities. I feed it to wild birds so its well worth it to me. You can occasionally find it packaged in much smaller amounts (but a lot more money per lb). This product must be further crushed for use by small birds, I do that with a small coffee grinder dedicated unto the purpose.

Note that the ABBA Mineral Mix is mostly crushed oyster shell already.

HOWEVER. Even having the ABBA Mineral Mix in the cage at all times is not sufficient, because there are times when your birds will need extra calcium. If their only source of calcium is the mineral mix, they will have to ingest more of EVERYTHING in the mix and not just calcium, which could cause other problems.

So place a cuttlebone and a (edges broken off roughed up) mineral block such that they won't poop on them and leave them in the cage at all times, even if it looks like they're not using them, for emergency calcium and beak conditioning. Just make sure they stay clean. EG don't place them under a perch or so close to a perch they might turn around and poop on it. I elevate my mineral block above tail-feather height by resting it on top of a finger cup.

AND have at least one source of crushed (not powdered) calcium in the cage such as crushed oyster shell or crushed egg shells in a treat cup that you keep filled ALL THE TIME, in addition to the ABBA Mineral Mix.

You could try to crush up some cuttlebone but it is so fragile it tends to powder.

The ABBA Mineral Mix is the only one I will recommend, both for its composition and because I feel comfortable with the size of the particles in it. It is a blue mineral mix, but there are other mineral mixes which are also blue and at least one of them that I have examined personally had much larger chunks than I would be comfortable with. Too large a piece of something like oyster shell could cause problems for your birds.

I'm sure there are other mineral mixes which are equally appropriate and safe as the ABBA, but I don't know what they are and I can't remember specifically which blue mineral mix it was that looked unsafe, so I stick with the ABBA.

About powdered supplements - I know some people use them but my guys very very obviously prefer supplements in large enough chunks that they can easily pick it up and manipulate whatever it is. So I use the Cece commercial egg food because it is crumble sized particles, instead of the Quicko which is more powdered, for instance. There is powdered cuttlebone out there which would be good to mix into, say, home made egg food but perhaps not so suitable to just put in a treat cup.

So when crushing your egg or oyster shells you want fairly small pieces but not actual powder.

In order to keep the cage, supplements/food, and environs cleaner, I use only tube feeders, silos for water, and finger or thumb cups and egg biscuit cups (these are shallow, narrow feeders).

Reasons:
1) too small to lay eggs in
2) easy to place so they don't poop in them
3) too small for them to perch on the cup itself, turn around, and poop in them
4) too shallow to build up a top cover of hulls that buries the seed - no need to EVER blow off the hulls or mistake hulls for seed.

I put their staple seed in a silo/tube feeder, I use a silo for water, and everything else goes in the thumb/finger cups or an egg-biscuit cup. NOT AN EGG CUP that is shaped like an egg, but the egg-BISCUIT cups.

You can find examples of these (and the ABBA Mineral Mix, also the HATCHED!) on the Glam Gouldians site. She is my go-to for things birdy.

[Dave]

Sojourner, great write-up.

My program differs from yours only in this respect: I don't feed vitamins and haven't for years. Instead, I make sure the birds have (besides seed and Abba blue mineral grit) boiled egg including the shell, and sunflower chips, and greens.

If you're FEEDING a complete diet, than it's possible that added vitamins will over-do it and cause other problems.

There are lots of differing opinions on this, though. What you've written is very good.

[Sojourner]

Sojourner, great write-up.

My program differs from yours only in this respect: I don't feed vitamins and haven't for years. Instead, I make sure the birds have (besides seed and Abba blue mineral grit) boiled egg including the shell, and sunflower chips, and greens.

If you're FEEDING a complete diet, than it's possible that added vitamins will over-do it and cause other problems.

There are lots of differing opinions on this, though. What you've written is very good.

Dave - its the D3 that's important in those vitamins, or at least the MOST important. I know of no other way to get it to the birds reliably given that neither natural nor artificial sunlight can do the job.

If I DID find a source of D3 only that didn't cost the earth and wouldn't go off before I could use it all then I'd have to evaluate which of the rest of the ingredients might still be lacking, LOL! So finding such a source would just make more work for ME, LOL!

Seriously, they are doing fine this way so I'm good with it - and its just the 2 birds. Plus I should have mentioned, once or twice a month I give them a vitamin holiday and just go with plain water.

I do feed greens and a variety of seed (except when I'm trying to get Pyewacket to STOP. LAYING. THOSE. EGGS!). But remember even we HUMANS have been warned that modern commercial vegetable-ry is lacking in vitamins and minerals as they've been depleted out of over-used commercial fields and/or quick-growing and good-for-packing commercial vegetable breeds may have had some of the nutrients bred right out of 'em. Even people are supposed to take their vitamins.

The one thing I don't like about the Oasis is that it uses Vitamin A instead of beta-carotene. Beta-carotene would serve the same function as it is converted to Vit A in the body, but it is totally non-toxic (overdose would just wash out via whatever birds have that passes for a kidney) where it is possible to overdo the Vit A (because its not water soluble eg excess is stored in the fat cells and not flushed out of the body like Vit C or beta carotene would be).

But Vit A is short in their diet anyway (they continue to reject parsley). Plus, occasional vitamin vacations. So far so good.

There have been sunflower chips in the cage at all times. They eat it but have never pigged out on it. I've been thinking of taking it out of the cage (as its the last thing I can think of that might be facilitating this idea Pyewacket has that she's some sort of one-finch egg factory) but ... she's not eating much of it anyway, if any, so only Bambi-her-husband would suffer.

But no mashed real eggs because my guys won't touch 'em. Only the Cece commercial dry egg food and that has to be dry.

Apparently they have a thing about wet foods. I keep offering them various fruits and other than taking a few bee-sting bites out of the strawberries, they won't touch 'em. They do go crazy for their greens though. They love sunflower leaves the most, maybe because they only get 'em during the growing season, IF I remembered to plant any, LOL!

[Dave]

Sojourner, try this for egg food: 1 boiled egg with shell, 1 tablespoon CeDe dry egg food. Blend lightly in a food processor. The dry food will help dry out the egg.

Mine must be getting D3 from egg, because they've raised young for years and I've never seen an egg-bound hen. However, lots of people recommend vitamins (especially for D3) as you suggest.

Also, my birds are Canaries which are easier than many other finch species. Canaries eat practically anything.

My bird nutrition bible is from the Finch Information Center, from the link on this Forum. http://www.finchinfo.com/general/index.php

Another information source is 'Nutrition of Finches & Other Cage Birds' by Robert G. Black.

Finally, I've never believed that we're eating vegetables that are lacking in vitamins and minerals because of the way they're produced. I was a commercial plant grower for 50 years, and you really can't grow them if they're missing what they need.

[Sojourner]

Dave

The loss of nutrition in vegetables is a real thing. The plants grow just fine whether they have what WE need in them or not. Its not like an eggplant needs vitamin A (etc etc) for its own growth.

From Scientific American:

it is true that fruits and vegetables grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today. The main culprit in this disturbing nutritional trend is soil depletion

studied U.S. Department of Agriculture nutritional data from both 1950 and 1999 for 43 different vegetables and fruits, finding “reliable declines” in the amount of protein, calcium, phosphorus, iron, riboflavin (vitamin B2) and vitamin C over the past half century

“Efforts to breed new varieties of crops that provide greater yield, pest resistance and climate adaptability have allowed crops to grow bigger and more rapidly,” reported Davis, “but their ability to manufacture or uptake nutrients has not kept pace with their rapid growth.” There have likely been declines in other nutrients, too, he said, such as magnesium, zinc and vitamins B-6 and E, but they were not studied in 1950 and more research is needed to find out how much less we are getting of these key vitamins and minerals.

Yet another study concluded that one would have to eat eight oranges today to derive the same amount of Vitamin A as our grandparents would have gotten from one.

All emphasis is mine.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... tion-loss/

I'd give you some peer reviewed journal articles to additional studies but I no longer have access to a university library portal and it'd be difficult to find a lot of them without that.

So yeah, due mainly to soil depletion and secondarily to the way we breed for fast growth, tough skins (to pack and travel well) and all the rest of it, nutrition in vegetables has declined and will most likely continue to do so. It is an easily measured metric. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

I'll look for that book. My finchy guys are pretty good about eating a variety of stuff (as long as its not wet or damp, veggies being apparently "dry" enough to suit them) but I've got a couple of parakeets who are suspicious little devils. Getting them to eat a balanced diet is super duper tricky and I haven't really accomplished it yet.

At least they will nibble at a few veggies - it's taken about 8 months just to accomplish that much. At one point I had a banana chip in one of those claw holders on the side of their cage. I came in one day and found about a quarter of it broken off.

"YAY!" thunk I. "They are finally eating something besides parakeet seed!"

Not so much. They were using it for a head scratcher.

*sigh*

[Dave]

Interesting articles, thanks for passing these on. It seems that you're right on today's vegetables having lower levels of nutrition. I couldn't determine if water content was taken into account, but it probably was. Since growers are paid by the pound, it benefits the farm if their produce has more water content. I'd guess that breeding new varieties has the same motivation.

It seems to me that there are more year-around fresh vegetables now available to us than in 1950. Is lower nutrition content the trade-off? That is a large topic. I do know that we can't expect farmers to lose money, and that consumers want prices to be low. Quicker crops, and more shippable crops meet both demands.

Thanks again!

[Sojourner]

Dave

IMO there are way too many middlemen between the farmer and the consumer. That's where all the money is made.

I don't know the current price of corn, but this should be close-ish - when the farmer gets $3 a bushel, but a box of corn flakes if $5 or $6, there is something really really wrong with that.

And yeah, there are more "year-round" veggies and fruits - a lot coming from South America in our winter season. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. I'm not sure its always a totally bad thing either. I DO think that so much agriculture in CA which is basically a desert and has to be irrigated is a bad thing.

But nobody really cares what I think, LOL!

I do remember somewhere along about 15 years or so ago, we had a head of the USDA who opined that we ought to be importing all our food. Can't remember who or when exactly that was, but that struck me as an UBER stupid idea.

[wildbird]

Is anyone going to be selling birds at the Orlando, Fl. bird fair next Sunday? If so, what species will you be bringing.

[Sojourner]

Is anyone going to be selling birds at the Orlando, Fl. bird fair next Sunday? If so, what species will you be bringing.

You might want to post that in Marketplace, or maybe the General finch chat thread. Folks might be more likely to see it.