*smacks forehead* HELP!

[meg_has_zebras]

I just got another addition...which I didn't want because I don't have the room for more than 4. Ok here is the story....

As you guys know, I work at a petstore. Well... the big wigs require that we have nests in with the finches....so...we always end up with eggs. Most of the time the eggs aren't fertile and they get pushed out of the nest and that's that. Well...this time we have a very randy pair. We have 4 babies of different ages (oh...this is the society and spice cage). Well the oldest got bumped from the nest today and his pin feathers are filling out but he isn't eating on his own yet. Well...we had planned on keeping him in with the flock....we don't mean to breed these birds. Well...the baby is sitting at the bottom (we use bird pine bedding) and is doing fine for a fledgling. Of course we had several customer complaints because most of the feathers still have that pin shaft on them so he looks (to non-bird people) sickly. We explained that he's fine...it's natural for birds at that age to get bumped from the nest but he's in with his parents.

Well...then we had 2 vet techs come in and they threw this aweful fit about how we have to hand feed him and that we were inhumane for leaving him in there. They stayed around until we took the baby out of the cage. We tried to but him back in after we closed but he was completely ignored by the flock and his crop was empty.

So now I have this baby....I know how to hand feed but the smallest bird I've ever had to feed was a cockatiel!!! Any tips or suggestions? Also..should I keep him in a seperate cage or would it be better to put him with the zebras? (I'm not sure if they'll pick on the baby)

Also....the other babies...if this same thing happens....any ideas?

[Crystal]

Have you tried putting him back in the nest again now that it isn't closing "bed" time? They aren't supposed to fledge until all the pin feathers are grown out and they stand a chance at flying up to perches and following their parents around the cage from perch to perch begging for food. I'm surprised vet techs of all people would think you have to hand raise a baby just because it fell from the nest. I have a little gouldian who likes to (now on a daily basis) fall from his nest prematurely (he is in the pin feather stage for the most part now too, but still a week or two too young to be out of the nest) because the little bugger gets so excited about begging that he doesn't wait for the parents to enter the nest to feed him; he totters on the entrance and as they feed he leans back to beg and boop, falls. Not very bright, but very determined. I keep putting him back in the nest and he does fine.

I would feed him while you have him, but first thing in the morning, try replacing the baby in the original parents' nest first and see if they won't accept him in that way. Societies are awfully forgiving and prone to feeding anything anyway. If they don't feed him within a few hours, then it's probably safe to assume that you are in fact stuck hand feeding. Luckily at this stage (older chick) it's a lot easier; but still a TON of work with LOTS of days ahead of you stuck preparing food every few hours.

Here is an article detailing tips for hand feeding a finch:

http://www.finchinfo.com/breeding/handfeeding.php

Also if you search this forum for hand feeding, we have had a couple members who recently have been through this process and have shared their helpful tips in their posts on the subject. Hopefully they'll visit this thread to give their two cents.

To answer your questions though if they don't accept him this morning: I would keep him in a separate cage from your zebras for sure. If it happens with the other babies, always be persistent about putting them back in the nest first while there is still "day time" available; if they are rejected for any reason though, you can hand feed them along with your current nestling and they can all share the same 'hand feeding cage.'

[tammieb]

Why do the owners of this pet store insist on nests being in the cages if you aren't trying to breed???

Makes NO sense to me!

[StevePax]

Yeah, there shouldn't be nests in the cages. I've seen nests in all the cages at Petsmart, Petco, etc, and I always wonder if they are getting tons of eggs or something. What do you do if the parents are sitting tight on a clutch, the babies are hatched, and then someone comes along and buys the parents? Those birds are for sale, after all, aren't they?

[Crystal]

If I had to hazard a guess as to why Petco Petsmart, etc. put nests in finch cages I'd guess it's because:

1. they honestly believe this is appropriate husbandry

and/or

2. they want to lead by example--people buying finches are likely to buy the items they see in the cage with the finches because they assume that #1 is true.

However I'm also interested to hear how this was justified to you as protocol, Meg. I've also heard (I think on this forum actually)--and maybe you can confirm this--that babies which are produced "in house" in larger chain stores like Petco/Petsmart cannot be sold to the general public, so they are usually placed in employee's (or friends/family-of-employee's) homes. Steve raises an interesting point of what happens to the dependent young if the parents are sold, too.

I also kinda wonder if larger pet store chains would remove the nests to prevent potential issues of unwanted breedings, egg binding, the stress of territorial aggression, etc. if people with some kind of authority (avian vets, the NFSS, many concerned and informed customers, and so forth) put pressure on them to reconsider their cage accessorizing options.

It's not the biggest cause in the world needing attention, but hey, how many causes do finch owners get to march behind? haha (In addition to trying to learn and teach each other as much as we can about our birds, and sometimes debating the ethics involved in finch care/breeding/shipping/catching/selling/etc.)

[Sally]

Hi, Meg

I have tried handfeeding a baby (see Handfeeding a Star Finch Baby under Breeding, also Handfeeding Gouldian, posted by Vetbridge, under Breeding). It is really difficult, except you have the advantage of having one that is older and soon to leave the nest anyway.

I agree with Crystal, by far the best option would be to try to get the parents to take an interest in the baby again. If that won't work, you can handfeed the baby, using Lafeber or Kaytee handfeeding formula. You want it pretty soupy, and then can draw it up into a 1cc or 3cc syringe. The most important things to watch for when handfeeding is aspiration, where the baby gets food into its lungs, and crop burn, which is what happened to my baby. Make sure the food is barely warm, and then you will get a feel for how much you can put in its mouth at one time. The baby has to be able to swallow what is in its mouth before you give it more. You don't want to give it any food until it is begging, as that is how you can aspirate it, but once you have fed it a couple of times, it will respond to you just like to its parents.

Read those two postings I listed above, and also, a site called ladygouldianfinch.com has some articles about handfeeding. Good luck!

[meg_has_zebras]

Thanks guys! I fed the baby last night... he/she is doing well...made it through the night. I'll pop into work today and try sticking the baby back in the nest. The poor thing for sure can't fly yet....or even attempt to fly.

As far as the big chains go...I can't really speak for p-co but the other I can....well I can only say so much. Policies and all. In defense.... p-mart does a lot to care for the animals in the best way possible to fulfill everybody's expectations. There are certain hoops that we have to jump through as a chain and many things that we do that my seem a bit out there or over the top is pretty much linked to PETA (who, as of lately, has been riding our butts).

P-mart does NOT promote or allow in store breeding. Accidents do happen though. For instance that's why all p-marts are sex specific in their small animal section. One store will carry males and another store will carry females.

The finch nest thing....they make nests a protocol because some where down the line someone threw a fit about finches sleep there naturally and etc etc etc. I mean...the cockatiels and parakeets don't get nesting boxes. So really somewhere an issues was made of it with the finches because the general public doesn't think of it as for breeding and raising young so much as it is a HOME for these animals. P-mart is very very strict on the care for all of the animals for housing, bedding, food...everything. That's why I love the company....it's not perfect...but things are always improving and changing.

We do take extra extra care of the birds. We also put extra things in their cages because of PETA....who wants us to eliminate bird sales completely. We don't carry large birds anymore.. like Macaws, Amazons, etc.

[tammieb]

My local Petco does NOT have nests in any of the bird cages. I think it is left up to the individual store managers. Evidently some mangers know a thing or two about the birds in their care and others do not.

[meg_has_zebras]

Yes...Petco isn't as structured....but that can also lead to them doing very wrong things as well. I've been mad so many times at the Petco in my town....but it's just simple stupidity for them. I've had many people come in and complain about them. I have to go in a shop there once in a while because, sadly, they do carry items that we don't (like aquatic driftwood) and everytime....it's this stressful, vain-throbing in my forehead, task. Every store is different due to management and the employees that work there.

[tammieb]

Rather than buckling under public expectations the pet stores should educate the public by explaining that nests are not required for sleeping and providing nests could lead to unwanted chicks. Even if this has to be done many times a day.


Many times we have had newbies come on here who have been told by pet shop staff that nests are required. This is false and is only done to make a sale.

[meg_has_zebras]

Ok..I can't really debate on this....but all I can say is that the right group of people have extreme influence on pet retail.

For instance....the vet techs that decided to make a VERY BIG deal infront of the store about how inhumane we were. We tried explaining....they didn't care....but they did make a scene.

Just keep that in mind....customers voices are heard.

Ok...the little society is chirping at me.

[Thalia]

ok, maybe this is a stupid suggestion.... but if it's protocol to put in nests but you don't want breeding... why not remove the eggs as a part of your daily cleaning? Or put in those fake eggs so the birds will be less inclined to lay? Oh and vet techs probably wouldn't know about birds unless they worked at an exotics clinic, they get very little training in exotics in school, well at least here they do. Most of the training they get is quite generalised, how to do a vein puncture, do basic sample processing etc etc.

[Rue]

I was wondering the same thing...vet techs have no more 'power' than any one else shopping at the pet store...

Eggs can always be shaken...problem (sort of) solved...

[meg_has_zebras]

We try to avoid egg removal (like I said...usually eggs are not fertile) right away because females tend to re-lay right away which can be stressful to constantly re-lay.

Like I said...I can't debate on this. All I can so is ensure you that the company has it's best intentions and that customers can make changes by letting the company know how they feel. The company is EXTREMELY customer oriented....almost to unnerving points. I, myself, can not make changes and I would like to continue to keep my job....

The vet techs made something happen for 2 reasons

1. They are customers

2. They were making a horrible scene.

It really had nothing to do with them being vet techs...I just used that to reference them since that's what they claimed to be.

[Rue]

Well...to get them off your back...next time tell them to call the corporate office...that's why the big-wigs get the big-bucks...