What's your opinion in regards to advertising on this forum?

[Crystal]

Hello fellow finch enthusiasts! I was wondering if I could interest you in a lively debate, and ask for your feedback on a topic area which I think is important for this forum: Allowing member advertising.

As you may have gathered from the forum mission statement (or better yet your experiences on this forum!), the FINCHforum is, as a very insightful member put it, "intended as a resource, guide, support for people who own/breed finches, but are not commercial business owners."

So I wanted to open a discussion & get your opinion regarding the pro's and con's of advertising on this board--as well as how much advertising to permit, and where to permit it.

After all, it is true that we strive to keep the emphasis here on the hobby & educational aspects of finchkeeping. We don't want to cause members to start feeling alienated should they begin to feel that advertising/promotion on this forum was becoming excessive. And then there may be concerns regarding the (potential) conflicts of interest that have an opportunity to be encountered when one mixes giving advice with having a financial incentive (a recognized problem even at research institutions!). However! I also suspect that many, if not most, of our members appreciate having resources at their finger tips for locating birds & supplies. And even though many here are not commercial birdkeepers and have no intention to "go commercial," we often have members who wish to purchase or sell a bird or bird-related item from time-to-time. Beyond that I personally feel that information on some aspects of owning & operating a bird-related business can be quite fascinating and maybe even inspirational to those who ARE thinking about starting their own venture. And then of course there's the "farmer's market" feelings on the matter: some of our very own members have commercial finch ventures, and others may find it a nice notion to be able to "buy local" and "support the community" so to speak.

In my personal opinion, I feel moderation is key. As another one of our members put it, "The ideal would be for those members who do have a commercial finch-related business to be able to put that information out, as the other members are often looking for where to buy supplies, but to keep it contained enough that we maintain the hobby aspect of this forum." So if that sounds like a reasonable stance (feel free to dissent if it doesn't sound reasonable to you!) - the next question is how to we achieve that here? (Hence the poll questions - you should be able to chose more than one response if you feel that more than one appeals to you)

I know some people might feel very strongly about this issue and although I DO want a healthy debate, I DON'T want to incite any "riots"! This matter is important to me, though, so if it's important to you, I am looking for as much (of course friendly) feedback as possible - feel free to take the attached poll, reply to this post if you're comfortable, or if you'd prefer a less public platform, PM me your thoughts!

Thank you so much for your time!! I really value your input and appreciate your responses on this matter!

[wearjo]

Hmmm... I feel that advertising should be able to be done in the marketplace and pms. However, if in a topic, you should only be allowed one topic for advertising for say, each fortnight? You must comment each item after the original post during that fortnight. Also, if someone wants to buy something (as I'm assuming you're talking about sales advertising), they must post pending (item), then they have to pm the seller, and work it out there. If people constantly spam the marketplace, then they should be banned from the forum for say, a week? I'm not sure what banning rules should be, but yeah...

I hope you like my ideas

[dan78]

Crystal could there be another section made for advertising a business that any person who wishes to can go there oj there own merits while leaving all the other sections open as per normal. This way it won't clutter the market place with advertising of businesses. Would there also be a fee involved for a business to advertise? Placing a business in the signature I believe is ok. I do like how you are tackling this subject.

[wellingtoncdm]

Crystal could there be another section made for advertising a business that any person who wishes to can go there oj there own merits while leaving all the other sections open as per normal. This way it won't clutter the market place with advertising of businesses. Would there also be a fee involved for a business to advertise? Placing a business in the signature I believe is ok. I do like how you are tackling this subject.

I like the idea of another section.

[debbie276]

I personally don't have a problem with people stating that they know someone or they sell such and such if it's in regards to a subject in a post. I don't like to see over and over just advertizing posts thrown out there for the sake of a sale. Bird supply places come and go so it's good to hear of new places and where you can get specific items.
So I guess the best way to regulate it for me would be to allow them to advertise in their signature and their profile. Otherwise only when it is part of a discussion in a post. I would not like to get PM ads.

I'm sure whatever you decide will be fair

[Martie]

I really like all that you said, Crystal, and also believe whatever is decided will be best. To me, discussions of issues - moving to potential solutions - and subsequent suggestions of where to buy products to implement those solutions if the poster is new or otherwise doesn't know - are a natural progression of a topic and shouldn't be curtailed.

The products we use are mostly sold by small companies that do come and go, and I always love to hear about where and what birds are available - so I think member advertising should be a part of the forum - as a service to members. The Marketplace does this very well and we already have a place to list businesses in the Resource Forum. I like that as it is moderated and kept current.

I very much appreciate the caring and attention from the moderators of this forum!

From she who carries advertising in her signature

[cindy]

I think a separate section for business should be created. You can post the business name, a small write up including contact info and what is offered. Limit pictures to a reasonable amount.


I would leave individual items like cages and birds indivual non business members are selling in Marketplace.

[Crystal]

I think these are all some excellent points and suggestions!

Hmmm... I feel that advertising should be able to be done in the marketplace and pms. However, if in a topic, you should only be allowed one topic for advertising for say, each fortnight? You must comment each item after the original post during that fortnight. Also, if someone wants to buy something (as I'm assuming you're talking about sales advertising), they must post pending (item), then they have to pm the seller, and work it out there. If people constantly spam the marketplace, then they should be banned from the forum for say, a week? I'm not sure what banning rules should be, but yeah...

Hi wearjo! (Nice to meet you!) I think you raise some valid points, but I am confused about the fortnight topics, and was hoping you could give me more details to illustrate what you mean? Do you mean that people should only be allowed to advertise once every 14 days? Can you make up a scenario or example that would explain what you mean? (e.g. Person X wants to advertise, Person Y wants to buy, the Item in question is Z, etc.? I know that sounds silly but whatever you think is best to help me understand!) In regards to how to handle the actual negotiation of a sale - and this probably is most pertinent to posts in the Marketplace - I agree that the seller should post a blurb about the item they have for sale, that potential buyers should be able to ask questions or make comments about the item in the thread, and that negotiations should take place via PM *and be initiated by the interested buyer*. I do not want PMs being used for solicitation (meaning I don't want for a seller to PM people for the purpose of seeking buyers or send out "mass-PM advertisements"). I think if a buyer approaches a seller of their own accord in PM about a particular item, of course the two are welcome to negotiate/further discuss the product, which includes allowing the seller to continue to make their "sales pitch" if indicated. In regards to true spamming (i.e. posting irrelevant items, items of an "adult" nature, etc.), no spamming is ever allowed on any part of this board, ever, and true spammers (whose primary purpose in creating their account here was to plaster the site with links touting their irrelevant products, etc.) are banned without warning. And that's a rule that's here to stay! (This is definitely not the forum for viagra sales!!)

Crystal could there be another section made for advertising a business that any person who wishes to can go there oj there own merits while leaving all the other sections open as per normal. This way it won't clutter the market place with advertising of businesses. Would there also be a fee involved for a business to advertise? Placing a business in the signature I believe is ok.

I think a separate section for business should be created. You can post the business name, a small write up including contact info and what is offered. Limit pictures to a reasonable amount. I would leave individual items like cages and birds indivual non business members are selling in Marketplace.

I can see the value in keeping the market place primarily for hobbyists/individuals posting a "wanted" or "for sale" or "for trade" ad - and then having a separate section for people to discuss business related issues including advertising their more commercial ventures. Should the business section be a subforum of the marketplace, a subforum of resources, a subforum of off-topic, or simply its own forum within finch-related? (anyone with an opinion on this feel free to chime in!) In regards to charging a fee for businesses to advertise - no. This board is not a commercial venture, so it will not be charging anyone any fees.

I personally don't have a problem with people stating that they know someone or they sell such and such if it's in regards to a subject in a post.

To me, discussions of issues - moving to potential solutions - and subsequent suggestions of where to buy products to implement those solutions if the poster is new or otherwise doesn't know - are a natural progression of a topic and shouldn't be curtailed.

I agree with these points & also don't mind discussions of items if the mention of a product is meant to answer a question or serve as an 'educational' point. However, I do think we need to find a way to distinguish between giving information with the intent to educate/answer a question & giving information with the intent to ultimately achieve financial gain (ie market a product you happen to have for sale) so that we can allow for reasonable discussion without crossing the line into marketing/solicitation. Any thoughts on how to accomplish/enforce this?

[Crystal]

Also I have another potentially sensitive subject to ask your opinions about, because it is related to regulating advertising on this forum - short of spam, dangerous products, or items which are not considered appropriate subject matter for a family-friendly finch forum, should there ever be a circumstance under which a product is "censored" or not "allowed" to be mentioned or advertised on this forum?

[debbie276]

Personally I don't agree with censoring or not allowing bird related products other then the reasons mentioned. Who would decide and under what grounds? If you allow some shouldn't you allow all (except for the spam dangerous products etc)?

[Martie]

short of spam, dangerous products, or items which are not considered appropriate subject matter for a family-friendly finch forum, should there ever be a circumstance under which a product is "censored" or not "allowed" to be mentioned or advertised on this forum?

I think you meant this anyway - but I would like to only see bird-related products.

[Crystal]

Personally I don't agree with censoring or not allowing bird related products other then the reasons mentioned. Who would decide and under what grounds? If you allow some shouldn't you allow all (except for the spam dangerous products etc)?

I also feel this is an area which may be too subjective or "slippery slope"-y. Just wanted to see if there was any reason anyone could think of (other than the obvious - spam, not a bird-related item, potentially dangerous/harmful item, etc.) to disallow a product? For (extreme, illustrative-purposes-only) example, what if we found out that a portion of sales of a certain product through a certain vendor offered here was being funneled to a terrorist organization? Of course the vendor would be "kicked out" for supporting terrorism, but what about the product being sold? Should the product be punished for the transgressions of its vendor? Even trickier - what if the product was exclusive to the vendor? The product itself isn't harmful, but the sales it generates could be - should the forum force a boycott of the product in order to prevent funding terrorism? (again, extreme example). Or maybe a less extreme example - what if we found out birds being offered for sale here were part of an illegal import ring? Just trying to see if there are truly *any* circumstances :0)

I think you meant this anyway - but I would like to only see bird-related products.

Yes, of course. But riddle me this! Do you think we should continue to primarily allow only FINCH-related bird products, or should we allow ANY bird-related products (e.g. stuff for parrots, poultry, etc.), or should we maybe compromise by allowing only small-companion-related bird products (finches, canaries, small parrots, quail)?

[finchmix22]

I think since this is a finch forum with the subforums for hookbills and canaries, that sites/ads related to those products can be advertised in the Resources section, under Business Listings, or something of that type heading.

I don't want PM ads. If a topic is under discussion about what others use for their finch keeping, I think it is appropriate to give a link or reference to where we purchase those products, but not to give the "sales pitch" in the forum discussion. For example, I would give my opinion, based on experience with finches and refer the person to the product website or to any relevant research so they can be an informed consumer.

At the same time, I like to read the different reason people do use or don't use a product for our finches. I remember a post about an avian medication prescribed by a vet, that is also available online, but someone pointed out the vet mixes their own solution, based on weight, since finches are so small. the discussion went on a healthy debate about how safe medications may or may not be, if we don't get them from an avian vet or do not have access to one.
There's lots more, but I definitely would not like to read posts that seem biased because someone is trying to promote their own product through their posts.

[Crystal]

Deborah, you make all very excellent points!

...sites/ads related to those products can be advertised in the Resources section, under Business Listings, or something of that type heading.

...and I like the idea of "Business Listings" - but am also toying with the idea of having an even more encompassing "business designated" area - for example, for people who not only wish to be able to advertise or view advertisements, but also be able to talk about the process of starting, owning, operating a finch business, etc. Or maybe that type of topic is "off topic" or "beyond the scope" of this forum?

[debbie276]

what if we found out birds being offered for sale here were part of an illegal import ring?

Off the top of my head I would have to say anything illegal would be banned but if it was like say the chick-fil-a situation (where the president was against gay marriage) then it should be an individual choice to support them or not.

Do you think we should continue to primarily allow only FINCH-related bird products, or should we allow ANY bird-related products (e.g. stuff for parrots, poultry, etc.), or should we maybe compromise by allowing only small-companion-related bird products (finches, canaries, small parrots, quail)?

If we allow members to discuss these other birds and even have special sections for them, then why wouldn't we allow them to find out about the products for these birds?

...and I like the idea of "Business Listings" - but am also toying with the idea of having an even more encompassing "business designated" area - for example, for people who not only wish to be able to advertise or view advertisements, but also be able to talk about the process of starting, owning, operating a finch business, etc. Or maybe that type of topic is "off topic" or "beyond the scope" of this forum?

If you have a section for business advertising that would be a full blown ad and not just a "hey check this product out" as part of a post, I think it's only right that they should have to pay for it.