What's your opinion in regards to advertising on this forum?

[Crystal]

Hmm, wellingtoncdm, cindy, Ursula (& those of you who also feel similarly on this point) - I guess I never really envisioned inviting any 'large scale commercial finch breeders/brokers' to have any sort of area that was a 'free for all'. Nor did I ever intend to allow anyone to solicit anyone on this forum -meaning send uninvited advertisement/marketing/information their way (so no 'getting ads in PMs' unless *you* reached out to another member and *asked* for them to give you more information along these lines).

Maybe a better way for me to gauge any interest in having a more defined section to discuss "finch businesses" is this:

Let's say the CEO of Kaytee wanted to join our forum as a member. Of course we would welcome and encourage his/her interacting with us as we already do (and as we already welcome members from all walks of life) - to discuss finch matters of import to the hobbyist keeper. We already have (I think - though I'm always open to suggestion) plenty of sections to allow these discussions to take place. We already have forums on diet, species, breeding, etc.

But then I imagine there would also be those of us who might be very interested in learning about this person's experience with being CEO at Kaytee or more about the "bird business." And maybe not on such a grand scale, but there may be other members here who are interested in finch business on a smaller scale (like how to run your own online or brick-and-mortar 'bird store' like many of the places you or I might go hunt for supplies, for example). Currently, I feel like there isn't any well-defined place on this forum for these types of discussions to take place.

Should these kinds of topics be filed under 'off topic' even though they are (kind of) finch-related? Should they be confined to 'resources' because they are a 'misc. source of knowledge'? I agree with not wanting the posts to be spread around the forum 'at random' because not only is that disorganized, but someone perusing the diet section probably doesn't want to know about the *business* aspect of Kaytee, even if Kaytee is a company which mostly makes bird foods.

Lastly I also am willing to bet that none of us wants to see the CEO peddle his Kaytee products and make us feel like his or her constant mention of the products was being 'shoved down our throats or in our faces.' No one wants that, I suspect. Certainly not me. So any 'business section' that we make would not change the fact that this forum is not a 'free for all' for people to spam us with marketing or advertisement.

I just wanted to see if enough people on this forum were interested enough in business issues - or simply hearing about the businesses some of our members already have - to warrant giving the subject its own forum/subforum.

If there is not sufficient interest in organizing these topics into a 'single folder' as best we can, then where do you propose we encourage people to post when they want to say, show pictures of the grand opening of their bird store, or ask what some good names for a bird store or aviary would be if they're just thinking about it, or announce that their store now carries a new style of bird nest for those that may be interested, etc.? Off-topic? Marketplace?

[debbie276]

But then I imagine there would also be those of us who might be very interested in learning about this person's experience with being CEO at Kaytee or more about the "bird business." And maybe not on such a grand scale, but there may be other members here who are interested in finch business on a smaller scale (like how to run your own online or brick-and-mortar 'bird store' like many of the places you or I might go hunt for supplies, for example). Currently, I feel like there isn't any well-defined place on this forum for these types of discussions to take place.

Doesn't interest me at all

Lastly I also am willing to bet that none of us wants to see the CEO peddle his Kaytee products and make us feel like his or her constant mention of the products was being 'shoved down our throats or in our faces.' No one wants that, I suspect. Certainly not me.

Exactly! It's different if your talking large company owners like that that don't raise finches. I personally would like to keep it breeders and small brick and mortar bird store owners mentioning products as part of a discussion.

If there is not sufficient interest in organizing these topics into a 'single folder' as best we can, then where do you propose we encourage people to post when they want to say, show pictures of the grand opening of their bird store, or ask what some good names for a bird store or aviary would be if they're just thinking about it, or announce that their store now carries a new style of bird nest for those that may be interested, etc.? Off-topic? Marketplace?

I honestly never go to the topics, I always hit "view new posts" and sort through the ones that interest me by title, so regardless of where they are I would see them.

My vote in the poll only refers to breeders and small brick and mortar bird stores. If we're talking company's like Kaytee then I would vote "nowhere".

Thanks for putting this up in a poll, it sure makes me feel like members opinions matter. That is why this is the best forum!

[Crystal]

Thanks for putting this up in a poll, it sure makes me feel like members opinions matter. That is why this is the best forum!

Aww, shucks

Well I'm glad you feel that way, because your opinions really DO matter, because they can help us make this forum even better, and so thank you so much for sharing them! :0)

[cindy]

Crystal, most of us buy from 3 to 5 different vendors on a regular basis, I personally get emails containing special.

Most find what works and pass that infor on to a newcomer or someone looking for a product and we just reference the site or name of the company. In my case I find the product and list the exact sit for them to read up on and/or purchase the product.

The business end of the bird store or retail bird supply place can get out of hand with tons of pictures huge right up and by the time you weed through it most will loss interest.

I think just adding a simply directory in the back for list of suppliers and a web address (no comments not write up) would be fine. Anyone wanting to know the big business end of it can pm the person or company.

Another option is put the directory in the Finch Info Center under a section all it's own with sub sections depending on the business. The company can be submitted to be added and that way if can be approved just in case it is a company that is questionable as you stated earlier in the post. this way to you are not adding to the actual Forum but adding to the FIC where a good portion of info is in regards to health, feeding etc.

[debbie276]

Just one other thought:
You might want to consider stating a disclaimer like "FinchForum in now way endorses blah blah blah" (don't know the legal lingo) because when a site, and especially a site as big as this one lists a supplier, people tend to think it must be a good company because it's on your list.
If you did get feedback that a few people had issues with a supplier would you remove them?
I used to have a huge breeders list on my old website. Over the years as I heard bad things about breeders I would remove them, between that and constantly keeping up on dead links it became a real chore. I ended up feeling like I was pointing people to breeders that wouldn't be any I would personally recommend so I stopped listing them. I just didn't want the responsibility.
I like the idea of personal recommendations within a thread rather then lists.

[Crystal]

Just one other thought:
You might want to consider stating a disclaimer like "FinchForum in now way endorses blah blah blah" (don't know the legal lingo)

I like the idea of personal recommendations within a thread rather then lists.

In fact the FINCHforum already does have such legal lingo! It's listed in a few places, actually:
1) in the Terms of Service under Advertising: "Caveat emptor: the FINCHforum and its Staff are not to be held liable for the products or services offered by its Users or external sources." (the "easy to read" version), and again listed in the "legal lingo" at the end of the TOS: "Under no circumstances, including, without limitation, negligence, shall the FINCHforum or its Staff be liable for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, or consequential damages, ...resulting from any goods or services purchased or obtained or messages received or transactions entered into by means of or through the Service..." etc.
2) in the description of the marketplace forum on the main page ("CAVEAT EMPTOR (buyer beware): this forum will not provide regulation, guarantee, warranty, or supervision of sellers/traders/buyers or their wares."),
and
3) in the Terms of Service specifically applying to the Marketplace forum.

---but admittedly the terms of service is pretty long! I will be making a "cliff's notes version" soon, and figured while I was working on the TOS, I might as well clarify & adjust any other sections that seemed to need it--like the subject of advertising!

I also like the idea of having a directory - simple... personal recommendations/testimonials are also helpful and actually the most persuasive form of marketing out there. I'd trust a friend's opinion over some anonymous blurb any day! But I don't want testimonials getting out of hand, either, and crossing the line into "badgering or peddling."

[debbie276]

See, that will teach me, I don't got to the different sections, just hit "view new posts" so I guess I didn't catch them before.

But I don't want testimonials getting out of hand, either, and crossing the line into "badgering or peddling."

Totally agree! But for the most part when someone acts that way it's a turn off and people stop responding or just don't go to that thread anymore so it serves no purpose to do it.

[Crystal]

But for the most part when someone acts that way it's a turn off and people stop responding or just don't go to that thread anymore so it serves no purpose to do it.

I think that is very true--but although it may be self-limiting eventually, sometimes it does go on more than it should, and I don't want people feeling so "turned off" on a regular basis by encountering that kind of behavior, that they no longer find as much fun in coming here in general. You guys have to stay so we can keep seeing more of your baby birds and aviaries and everything, after all! ;0)

[dfcauley]

Crystal... might I say it is really great talking with you and hearing from you. Learned alot about you in the past few days! Your the best!!!!

[Crystal]

Well ditto that!

[cindy]

Crystal... might I say it is really great talking with you and hearing from you. Learned alot about you in the past few days! Your the best!!!!

I agree...you are very sweet!I have also enjoyed corresponding with you!

Crystal can I show you an example of what a directory entry I had in mind would look like:
........................................................................................
Name of the business
Address & phone (optional)
website

A breif description of services and products offered

Pictures...limit 3 (any more and it could be over kill)

[profile] [pm] [map] [!] [like]
...............................................................................................

I am still not sure about replies and posts but I imagine if they are civil they are ok...they also have the option of the like button to.

[Crystal]

I think that sounds like a great feature for this site, Cindy! I think the post in the resources forum (Members Avian & Supply websites) was aiming to create this - but I really like the idea of beefing it up a bit! Thank you!

[dcompt]

Ok, here's a little input from a clueless finch newbie. I got my first finches in February, and by reading current threads and many old ones got a very good and very fast education in the subject. (Thanks bunches, everyone! You probably saved my new finches a lot of grief.)

While I would not like to see a lot of advertising, one thing that I found very helpful indeed was the occasional mention of a product and a link to where it could be purchased in the posts discussing various subjects, by forum members who had experience of it. Since I am limited locally to Petsmart, Petco, and a few local shops with very few bird supplies, this (1) alerted me to things I needed and (2) let me know where I could find them and expect a good customer experience, especially as several online stores showed up with some regularity. This was very helpful. Mr. Google knows where you can buy everything, but it can also be a wilderness out there in online land. So I appreciated members being allowed to not exactly advertise, but to make suggestions in ordinary posts.

A section for a kind of business directory with links, as many have suggested, would also be useful to those of us who are new to all this. As some have also pointed out, these specialty suppliers come and go, and to find a list of potential sources with descriptions of what kinds of things are available, all collected in one easy place, would be a nice resource.

However, any actual advertising beyond that, I would probably just ignore.

[Crystal]

Ok, here's a little input from a clueless finch newbie. I got my first finches in February, and by reading current threads and many old ones got a very good and very fast education in the subject. (Thanks bunches, everyone! You probably saved my new finches a lot of grief.)

While I would not like to see a lot of advertising, one thing that I found very helpful indeed was the occasional mention of a product and a link to where it could be purchased in the posts discussing various subjects, by forum members who had experience of it. Since I am limited locally to Petsmart, Petco, and a few local shops with very few bird supplies, this (1) alerted me to things I needed and (2) let me know where I could find them and expect a good customer experience, especially as several online stores showed up with some regularity. This was very helpful. Mr. Google knows where you can buy everything, but it can also be a wilderness out there in online land. So I appreciated members being allowed to not exactly advertise, but to make suggestions in ordinary posts.

A section for a kind of business directory with links, as many have suggested, would also be useful to those of us who are new to all this. As some have also pointed out, these specialty suppliers come and go, and to find a list of potential sources with descriptions of what kinds of things are available, all collected in one easy place, would be a nice resource.

However, any actual advertising beyond that, I would probably just ignore.

I really think this sums it up!

The only area I have left to resolve in my mind now is where to "file" the posts people make related to their own finch-business.

Thanks, Donna!

[nixity]

I'm a little behind on this because I generally do not pay attention to the site related thread.

I can see as an outsider how one particular thread could be perceived as marketing or perhaps over promoting a product or product line.
However, in an effort to be courteous to members who may perceive it as such (a marketing or advertisement post), the thread was purposefully posted in the Marketplace because the products are mentioned and do play an important role in the specific discussion.
This particular thread was moved by a moderator to Diet & Nutrition because it was felt as though others might benefit from seeing it and they may not see it if it was left only in the Marketplace.

Otherwise, the only individual I know of who would have been perceived as over-marketing is no longer able to participate on the forum, so I am trying to understand the necessity of creating a new policy now, surrounding a subject which is ipso facto no longer a problem.

So my question is this: if there were a number of complaints, why not just remove the thread (for example's sake let's just use the thread in the above case) from Diet & Nutrition and simply leave it posted in the Marketplace?
Or, if a post in a section is deemed marketing or promotional, simply move it to Marketplace with an explanation why?

I don't personally see the need for a new section on the forum or special new regulations towards Marketing or Advertising because in my personal opinion in the three years I've been an active participant I can't say I've ever found this to be a persistent (or existent?) problem.