Looking for Bird Broker Info

[Lt. Dan]

Sally brought up some fantastic points. There are just as many breeders out there that are irresponsible. It seems that once they see the dollar signs ethics and responsibility go out the window. As stated earlier in this thread without brokers we wouldn't have the variety we have which seems to be declining. I haven't found any commercial breeders of Twinspots or Orange Cheeked waxbills that can meet the demand. Not all of us like zebras, gouldians, or owl finches. As far as the more well known brokers (won't mention names) they obviously have some protocol for keeping their stock. They can't sell dead birds so I am sure they do quite a bit to insure the quality of their investments. As far as human interaction and toys, etc. These are finches not conures or cockatiels. Buying a zebra finch is nothing like buying a cordon blue or a purple grenadier. When you buy these more delicate birds you should already understand the risks involved.

[robs1970]

I agree with what Sally and Lt Dan posted.
Living where I do now, in south Texas, I am finding it slightly more difficult to find some of the finches I would like to keep. I moved from Iowa 4 yrs. ago. There I could find a lot of different species for sale. Their was an awesome bird mart held three times a year with a lot of finch breeders present. I have now been looking into using a broker to aquire some of those finches.

Without the brokers some of you who sell at the bird marts may not sell as many of the babies you have for sale.

Most of the good brokers have the financial means to buy in "bulk", and aquire species we ourselves may not be able to otherwise get.

I have also met and dealt with some really good breeders, with all the different birds I have kept and raised over the years. I have also dealt with horrible breeders. The private owner pet shops in my area are horrible. With the exception of 1. The only really good viable options for me are bird marts, the big pet stores, and maybe (hopefully) some of you members on this forum , and lastly maybe a broker.

As long as we are doing our do diligence, with research, and asking questions before purchasing you will know which is right for you.

Rob

[TheWhiteFinchAviary]

To assume that someone is bad because they are a broker is like assuming someone is good because they are a breeder. There are good brokers and bad brokers--there are good breeders and bad breeders. We've gone through this before. Why is it bad to be a broker? Why is it OK to try to make a profit on bird seed but not on birds? Why is a hobbyist better than a broker? A broker, out of economic necessity, will not keep his stock in the same exact conditions that a hobbyist may, it is unrealistic to expect that IMO. And what is wrong with purchasing birds for resale? Are we any better when we take birds to a mart, to a pet shop, or even when we think we are placing them in good homes. Do we really know how they are cared for after they leave us?

I deal with waxbills. Without brokers, I would not be able to keep them all. Many of my birds came from brokers. For those who deal only with the more domesticated species like Gouldians, they weren't always readily available to everyone. They were imported, brokers got them from the quarantine stations, and then they sold them to the pet shops, to breeders, to hobbyists. We can thank those brokers for helping to make many of these species available to us. To me, the word broker does not have a bad connotation, it is just a word. I deal with people, with people who care about birds just as I do. Some are brokers, some are breeders, some are experienced, some are newbies. I judge each on their own merits.

No one has said anything about assuming a broker is bad because they're a broker, or good because they're a breeder. No one has even made negative generalizations about them. The whole point of this discussion is to talk about the personal experiences people have had. Trying to make it a breeder vs broker debate won't add to the conversation and only serves to detract from it.

There is a stigma associated with brokers based on people's experiences, as you mentioned. I'm not trying to argue that, I'm trying to figure out if there are good sides to experience also with these businesses. (As you said it seems impossible for brokers or flippers to provide ideal environments, but I don't get why that's understandable?) I want to know what these good conditions are to set a standard for the rest to be compared to.

You're also assuming that we're applying a breeder standard to brokers which you say is unfair, but as hobbyists we apply a general bird keeping standard to every single person who keeps birds. That's what pet owners of all kinds do to all businesses who sell pets. We expect them to have human socialization, mental stimulation, a diverse diet with treats, a person that cares enough to make sure they know people are their friends. As a consumer I would expect nothing else, and that's what a lot of these broker companies are trying to depict.

The bottom line is if I put my birds in less than favorable conditions, I would not have a business any more as would any breeder. The difference between selling seed and selling birds is that seed doesn't have a requirement for daily life & care - birds do. Anyone who makes a profit off of an animal while knowingly putting them in less than favorable conditions should at the very least make that known to their customers so they can decide whether or not to support it. Hiding behind the label of a breeder does not disclose any kind of truths about the business and can be very misleading. And I don't know a single breeder who doesn't talk at length with the person buying their offspring - it's one of their responsibilities to make sure they have the best start.

I agree, that each should be judged on their merits as a business and each should be 100% honest with their customers. I still don't understand why we can't actually talk about what these conditions actually are instead of the politics of why brokers are a necessity.

[Lt. Dan]

The good sides have been brought up in multiple posts and multiple threads. We are hobbyists here, the only way to know the conditions is to go visit a broker. Are you a commercial breeder?

[Sally]

As Lt. Dan said, the only way to know the conditions of a broker or a breeder is to go visit them. Since that is impossible for many, we deal on faith in this business. I order birds to be shipped to me. I trust the people to be honest with me and send me good birds. I don't see their setup, I go by reputation and word of mouth. When dealing with a new vendor, I will go to friends to see if they have any experience with that vendor. Failing that, I will turn to experienced breeders that I respect. That is no different whether it is a broker or breeder. And those recommendations almost always come from someone who hasn't seen the broker/breeder setup either.

Anyone who makes a profit off of an animal while knowingly putting them in less than favorable conditions should at the very least make that known to their customers so they can decide whether or not to support it.

Does anyone think that a less than favorable vendor is going to admit to it? Anyone can have a web page in which they tout the superiority of their birds and their setup. Can you believe all of them? Of course not. No one in their right mind is going to post that they have dirty crowded cages, they don't feed properly, they never check their birds. Pictures can be stolen from the internet and posted to impress. So we go on faith and referrals. Unless we are willing and able to visit these facilities in person, we must assume they are acceptable.

You ask for people's experiences with brokers, yet most of them have also never seen the setups of those brokers they have used. I have shipped many birds to many owners. None of them have seen my setup, nor do they know how I keep my birds, etc. I have purchased many birds sight unseen, simply having trust in those brokers and/or breeders. If I did not, there is an easy solution--only purchase from local breeders who maintain an open aviary. I know breeders who do not allow anyone in their breeding room. It's not because they have anything to hide, they fear what the customer might bring in, an infection that could wipe out their entire collection.

I'm not trying to be negative here, but I often see comments that are negative about brokers in general. The reference to those who buy birds and then resell them as 'flippers' implies to me that their only interest is in the money. I prefer to think of them as enablers, without them I might not have some of the truly wonderful birds I possess.
.

[Finch Mom]

As a new finch hobbyist I welcome the opportunity to be involved in a forum as this, obtaining lots of great information and experience with long time breeders and hobbyists. In setting up for successful breeding it seems imperative to have access to several different bloodlines. My first exposure to a local breeder was one who has over 300 birds, mostly finches, but allows breeding with siblings and parents. We each must learn about the do's and donts to protect our birds and the genetically strong bloodlines. Next I was involved with one reliable and then another unreliable bird source. 1 out of 3 odds for a newbie is disappointing and may drive you out of the hobby.

These days, on the internet, it is so easy for a person or company (breeder / seller / broker) to gain world wide exposure to buyers... which leaves us at our wits end in determining, sometimes over long distances, the background of birds for sale and seller ethics. Having a forum that will allow member recommendations of good sellers or mention unscrupulous breeder/sellers/brokers.. is only doing a better job for the people who depend on a open forum as this and attract new hobbyists.

[TheWhiteFinchAviary]

The good sides have been brought up in multiple posts and multiple threads.

I've only come across 1 or 2, hence this thread. If you'd like to quote a couple that would be helpful! Especially if they mention the broker's setups or processes at all since that's really what we're discussing - the husbandry behind the scenes.

I trust the people to be honest with me and send me good birds. I don't see their setup, I go by reputation and word of mouth... Failing that, I will turn to experienced breeders that I respect.

I get that we can't all take field trips to every breeder or broker we buy from, and I'm not trying to say that's a necessary thing to do obviously.

Personally I always ask for pictures of the birds, pictures of their setup, pictures from inside of their cages, their philosophies on care. So do all of my adopters when they're considering using my services and I always oblige. That seems like pretty basic stuff to ask to me. If I were buying from a broker I'd do the same. I've seen where each and every bird I've kept came from prior to discussing money & pick up. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of other people's setups from small time hobbyists to the breeders with dozens of pairs, but I've literally never seen any pictures of broker setups - unless it was in a news article.

Most breeders keep a transparent look into their practices thanks to things like websites and social media. In my experience if they don't have photos posted regularly or refuse to send you recent pictures, they're hiding something. You can read between the lines, look at past vs current photos, and ask questions for what they don't or won't say. It's easy to read people and their setups based on pictures & detailed conversations. You can see how often they clean their cages, first-hand accounts after customers visit, how many issues they've had, what kind of quality their stock & offspring are. Those are things that can't be faked or hidden consistently if you know what to look for. True, you can copy photos from another breeder or from google images but if someone asks for a current photo & the two don't match? That all seems like basic vetting to me.

I'd still like to see someone talk about the good brokers & how they actually run their businesses, what their setups and practices are like, etc. which is what I'm most interested in. I know there's a standard out there that some of the best brokers/flippers are setting I just can't find anyone who knows what it is. I greatly appreciate everyone sharing their honest experiences, it's just unfortunate that so many are negative which speaks to the need for a positive standard to compare them to even more.

Well said Finch Mom! There are so many bad breeders out there, but as you said setting a standard is imperative.

So sorry you went through that Ginene!! That sounds like a downright awful experience.

[Ginene]

After posting my reply about purchasing my RCCB hen from a broker, I remembered that my very first finch purchase in January 2013 was from a broker/breeder too. I say breeder/broker because they do breed some species, as well as sell wild caught finches. I purchased societies and zebras on line from a website that sold mostly finches, some canaries and bird starter kits. My experience was excellent. The people were informative and very patient...and they needed to be, as I was a newbie ordering 8 birds . Their website had tons of beautiful pictures of their birds, flights/aviaries and property. They emailed me when the birds were shipped and again when they arrived at my local post office (This was before I knew it is not legal to ship finches USPS). My finches arrived beautiful, healthy and happy. I literally had zero issues with this vendor. I recently contacted them about purchasing a Captive Bred BCCB hen...they explained that their BCCB's were all wild caught.

Since becoming a member on this forum, I have learned of people here having problems with this same vendor...birds arriving dead, wrong species sent, etc. But like Sally said, everyone can only speak from their own experience.

Thanks, TheWhiteFinchAviary. It was so sad to lose Sky. The thing that "got" me was that the seller never even returned my call or email. He might have thought I was looking for a replacement or my money back...but I was just hoping for some insight. Anyway, I do know of many other people who had purchased beautiful, healthy finches from him without issue...

[finchmix22]

Sally posted on the forum's policy regarding discussions of other breeders, brokers, vendors, etc. Positive comments are welcomed, as in any business referral. However, negative comments are to be sent by pm only. Also, she asked that everyone who post about an experience state if the experience is their own, from another forum or a friend, etc. This allows us to converse on what expectations, set ups etc. to look for when working with a new vendor. I look forward to the positive discussions.

[Finch Mom]

Will do, as per Sally's message

[TheWhiteFinchAviary]

Still looking for info from anyone about broker/flipper inner workings! Again I'm not trying to argue politics but I do want to know their practices in order to be able to apply a standard for the rest.

[Nerien]

I would think that each individual broker AND breeder will have their own individual practices and methods; so no one can tell you what "a broker" does or "a breeder" does. (And please let's drop the "broker/flipper" thing, which is obviously derogatory. To me, a "flipper" would be someone who takes free birds or cheap birds off craigslist and ebayclassifieds then turns around and immediately sells them at higher prices with no regard for quarantine, proper care, or anything else; and quite frankly, if you buy birds or any living creature off sites like that without thoroughly checking out the situation, you deserve whatever you get.)

You need to decide for yourself what practices you approve of and which you don't, and then apply them to each individual purchase you are making.

I am sure there are brokers who buy from reliable sources, quarantine the birds, keep records, keep track of related and unrelated batches, keep clean, healthy conditions and only sell clean, healthy birds. And then there are those who don't do all that, skipping one or maybe up to all those proper steps, and just go for as much profit as possible.

Just like there are breeders who keep clean, healthy conditions, carefully track bloodlines and prevent inbreeding, quarantine new acquisitions, only allow a proper number of clutches and insure proper resting periods in between. Just like there are breeders who don't care about the health, conditions, inbreeding, quarantining, and just crank out as many birds and as much profit as they can before their breeding pairs are worn out and die. Bird mills.

So you really need to set the standards that you wish your birds to have come from, and then when considering adding stock, perhaps then ask about the specific source you are looking at. I'm sure that way if someone has dealt with that specific source, you will get a reply warning you away or reassuring you that they have been a good source in the past.

[TheWhiteFinchAviary]

First of all, calling someone a broker or flipper is not derogatory by any definition of the term. I don't tell anyone who calls me a breeder that I'm offended, do I? But does the term breeder have negative connotations? Of course and yet I don't go around asking people to call me something I'm not just to make myself feel better, and I don't think that it helps to call brokers or flippers "breeders" because for the most part - they aren't. That would be misleading.

As far as no one being able to tell you how a broker or flipper runs their business goes - do you really think that's a reasonable thing to ask? For all of us to just not worry about it and pretend they're doing their best? That doesn't make any sense at all, and no one would agree to the same terms for breeders. Any breeder can tell you what they do, their philosophies for care, etc. - that's how we all make decisions on whom to trust and buy from. The same should be true for brokers and flippers, no? Someone with positive broker or flipper experience can say "here's what this business did and it was great." That's all I'm asking.

Again - I know that there are good brokers and flippers out there of course, that they give their flock the utmost care, but I could not honestly answer anyone who comes to me asking how they do what they do. That's the point of this post. Yet everyone keeps commenting as if brokers are under attack.

Instead of getting answers or any positive contributions to the conversation, I get people chastising me for even asking in the first place. As if I have no right to ask how brokers and flippers care for their flocks. That seems bizarre.

What I think is funny about all of this is that not a single person had mentioned anything negative besides their personal experiences until those who are in support of brokers and flippers began contributing. Then it became a case of breeders vs brokers which has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. And the accusation of attacks are silly when we can all read back and see that no one has attacked them.

Please help me keep this topic on track! I'm looking for information about how brokers and flippers care for their flock, especially first hand experiences but even just hearsay at this point would be helpful.

[Nerien]

Whoa! Please go back and read more carefully what I said, because most of what you just wrote has nothing to do with what I said.

A breeder takes a male bird and a female bird, puts them together, lets them make babies, and sells them. A breeder may sell the babies, the adults, a breeder may buy in new stock from any source, a breeder could sell off birds that were bought to provide new stock, or only birds raised on site. A breeder may be breeding as a business to make a profit, or they may be doing it for other reasons such as interest in the species and genetics, etc. A breeder may care intensely about the welfare of its birds, or it may not and just like breeding for the numbers. A breeder knows what its practices are, and may or may not tell you if you ask, depending on their personality and level of honesty.

A broker buys birds from any source they choose, could be breeders, could be wild-caughts, could be imports which could be breeder or wild caught, and then sells them to whoever wants to buy, which could be breeders, other brokers, flippers, hobbyists, whoever. A broker is running a business for profit. Which does not mean they do not care about the welfare of their stock. Nor does it mean they do care. That is up to the individual broker and how they choose to run their business. A broker knows what its practices are, and may or may not tell you if you ask, depending on their personality and level of honesty.

Flipper is a term from real estate, where it has come to be used for someone who buys properties cheap, does whatever is deemed necessary to add value, and then sells rapidly for quick and significant profit. The only intent is rapid turnaround of investment for maximum profit. To apply this term to birds or other living creatures implies someone who only handles them as a product, commodity, to be turned around for quick profit. Buy cheap, sell high, sell quick because money tied up in product is money not producing for you. To apply flipper to someone handling living creatures is only negative.

The actual practices of any breeder or any broker are up to that individual establishment. Whether they will disclose to you what their practices are, is up to that individual establishment. (Do you think someone who is handling their birds badly is going to come right out and tell you so?)

If you are not getting the answers you seek on specific breeders and brokers here, then perhaps this isn't the best place to ask for such information. Generally people here give answers if they can, so maybe the info just isn't here to get.

[TheWhiteFinchAviary]

Whoa! Please go back and read more carefully what I said, because most of what you just wrote has nothing to do with what I said.

That's too funny because I thought the exact same thing when I read your previous post!

I get that the term "flipper" has negative connotations by definition, but that doesn't mean it's an incorrect term or that anyone who uses it is trying to insult someone in a derogatory way. It simply means they resell birds for profit - which is exactly what's going on, right? What else are we supposed to call them? "People who resell birds for profit" somehow sounds better??

Obviously no, anyone who is conducting their business in a less than favorable way is not going to come right out and tell you that. But that's why we're all blessed with the ability to think for ourselves and to do our own research about the breeders we choose. We can read between the lines in photographs and answers to pertinent questions. The same should go for brokers or flippers - we should be able to get some insight on how they do what they do so we can make a decision about them. I know there are breeders out there who have just as many birds as brokers/flippers do and their flocks are well cared for. I would love to know more about the brokers'/flippers' innerworkings so I can find one with high standards to apply to the rest.

Again, we are getting way off topic here. The question is not "what's the difference between breeders, brokers and flippers?" The question is also not "should we not be able to call brokers and flippers brokers and flippers?" The question is not even close to "are brokers bad or are breeders better?"

The question is actually "how do brokers and flippers take care of their flock?" That's the topic I'd like someone - anyone to answer.