What do you make of this?

[Jossi]

In Sweeden we have laws to protect our pet birds (Im not sure how it works where you live). The law states how big cage you have to put your birds in, and other things like housing, that they must be at least two, in order to reassure that they live as normal lives as possible and other things.

Now there is a new proposition that says you have to keep bird up to 20 cm long (aprox. up to 8 inches), that would mean almost every single finch, in a cage that is 4 square meters (aprox. 43 square feet) and a minimum of 2 meters high (aprox. 6.5 feet). And you have to do this even if you only have 2 finches.

Im all about giving my birds as big of a cage as possible, but this is quite big... think about all of the families that have a pair of zebras for instance, that have to keep them in an enclousure this big, for me that seems impossible.

Whats your take on this? Its only a propositon as for now, but I think every singel bird keeper in sweeden as for now is on toes, not knowing what to make of it.

Its admirable that they care about our birds, but this seams a bit too mutch...

How does it work where you live?

[finchmix22]

I wish we had some regulation in the U.S., but the birds and many other animals do not get the support from the government they deserve. Even pet stores, which do have regulations, only have to have a one foot by one foot cage for 10 finches! I agree an enclosure that is 43 sq ft. wide and 6 ft. tall is too much to ask of a hobby breeder of finches. I suspect they are trying to help out the larger species like parrots etc.

[Jossi]

I wish we had some regulation in the U.S., but the birds and many other animals do not get the support from the government they deserve. Even pet stores, which do have regulations, only have to have a one foot by one foot cage for 10 finches! I agree an enclosure that is 43 sq ft. wide and 6 ft. tall is too much to ask of a hobby breeder of finches. I suspect they are trying to help out the larger species like parrots etc.

Yes, Im glad that we have those regulations... it makes it so mutch easier to report if you know that someone is miss treating their birds...
The messurement they are using for their proposition is the same as for the zoo. This will mean that most people cant keep birds... kind of sad.

For the bigger parrots the enclosure will have to be about 30 square meters (aprox. 323 square feet) and 3 meters high (aprox. 10 feet)... this means that you have to keep it outside or in a separate building, and the temperature in sweeden gets down to minus 15-20 degrees celsius inte winter (5 degrees farenheit) or sometimes lower.

we will have to wait and se how this all ends...

[nelloyello11]

I'm just curious- what sorts of requirements does Sweden have for keeping other pets/animals?
I am very much in support of regulations to protect our animals, but those do seem a bit excessive and sadly, exclusive.

[Jossi]

I'm just curious- what sorts of requirements does Sweden have for keeping other pets/animals?
I am very much in support of regulations to protect our animals, but those do seem a bit excessive and sadly, exclusive.

We do have regulations conserning all types of pets, and they are looking over the cage messurements for guinea pigs, rabbits, chinchillas, degus as well as reptiles.
You are not allowed to leave your cat alone at home for more than six hour I think, If you dont have more than one cat... the same goes for dogs. (not 100% sure)

Today the requirements for guinea pigs for exampel is a cage that is 3.3 ft long and 1.7 ft wide. And you have to keep at least two together.
Rabits are not alowed in cages smaller than 4 feet long and 1.7 feet wide. But this is most likely going to get bigger as well.

Today the requirements for bird like finches are cages that is 2.3 feet long and 1.7 feet wide and 2 feet high... so there is quite a big step from those messurements to the new propositon.

You are not alowed to clip the birds wings and not alowed to hand feed babies to get them tame (or at least its not recomended), but this is for sure going to be banned in the new laws.

Pet store owners and their personel has to go through a course in the basics of the pets they sell.

Alot of things are great in those laws, but its just the new cage sizes that seams a bit over board. I dont keep my finches in cages even nearly the size thats required today (I keep them mutch bigger), because I think you should really give them space to fly around... but I dont even get to half of the size in the new proposition.

[nelloyello11]

I'm just curious- what sorts of requirements does Sweden have for keeping other pets/animals?
I am very much in support of regulations to protect our animals, but those do seem a bit excessive and sadly, exclusive.

We do have regulations conserning all types of pets, and they are looking over the cage messurements for guinea pigs, rabbits, chinchillas, degus as well as reptiles.
You are not allowed to leave your cat alone at home for more than six hour I think, If you dont have more than one cat... the same goes for dogs. (not 100% sure)

Today the requirements for guinea pigs for exampel is a cage that is 3.3 ft long and 1.7 ft wide. And you have to keep at least two together.
Rabits are not alowed in cages smaller than 4 feet long and 1.7 feet wide. But this is most likely going to get bigger as well.

Today the requirements for bird like finches are cages that is 2.3 feet long and 1.7 feet wide and 2 feet high... so there is quite a big step from those messurements to the new propositon.

You are not alowed to clip the birds wings and not alowed to hand feed babies to get them tame (or at least its not recomended), but this is for sure going to be banned in the new laws.

Pet store owners and their personel has to go through a course in the basics of the pets they sell.

Alot of things are great in those laws, but its just the new cage sizes that seams a bit over board. I dont keep my finches in cages even nearly the size thats required today (I keep them mutch bigger), because I think you should really give them space to fly around... but I dont even get to half of the size in the new proposition.

For many reasons, those regulations are wonderful (especially the part about pet store employees!), and I believe that our birds should have as much fly space as we can reasonably give them, but I also agree that as minimum cage sizes, the proposed dimensions are a bit unreasonable. I don't know know too much about Sweden and the average living quarters (I'm sure it varies as greatly as it does here in the States), but such regulations would certainly exclude many people, such as myself, from finch-keeping.

[Jossi]

For many reasons, those regulations are wonderful (especially the part about pet store employees!), and I believe that our birds should have as much fly space as we can reasonably give them, but I also agree that as minimum cage sizes, the proposed dimensions are a bit unreasonable. I don't know know too much about Sweden and the average living quarters (I'm sure it varies as greatly as it does here in the States), but such regulations would certainly exclude many people, such as myself, from finch-keeping.

Yes it does wary greatly... its pretty much as in the States.. I probably wouldnt be able to keep them either.

Im really glad that we have regulations as well... but I sincerly hope that the final law will be somewhere in between what we have today and the proposition. Maby something like 1 square meter (11 square feet) in minimum or there about.

[monotwine]

IF this is only a proposition is it not possible for finch keepers to write to the authorities and explain the situation and give facts on the minimum acceptable size for two finches? Thereby ceeding that you agree certain limits need to be given and are acceptable, but that if they legally change the required size they will have many birds to rehome as people will not be able to accomodate them.

[Jossi]

IF this is only a proposition is it not possible for finch keepers to write to the authorities and explain the situation and give facts on the minimum acceptable size for two finches? Thereby ceeding that you agree certain limits need to be given and are acceptable, but that if they legally change the required size they will have many birds to rehome as people will not be able to accomodate them.

Yes theres alot of people doing that, so Im hoping they come to senses... They are also prepared to give bird keepers a 5 year transition period to have time to rearrange the living conditions for the birds. But nothing is decided at all... so I keep hoping!

We dont know yet how it all will turn out, and maybe they will find that this is quite a big step... i.e. all the birds that have to change home/be put to deth.

[annague]

Wow. Disturbing.

Of course I'm all for helping any kind of animal and protecting them but not if the government is going to try to legislate how I have to do it and not at the expense of those PEOPLE who are trying to help the animals, either.

Sorry that your government has gone to those extremes -- I'm afraid ours may be on the way to it as well... that's what happens when you get a bunch of nitwits in office and they have power to pass laws but no real common sense or knowledge about the subject matter.

I hope you can get them to see reason! Let us know what happens!

[Jossi]

Wow. Disturbing.

Of course I'm all for helping any kind of animal and protecting them but not if the government is going to try to legislate how I have to do it and not at the expense of those PEOPLE who are trying to help the animals, either.

Sorry that your government has gone to those extremes -- I'm afraid ours may be on the way to it as well... that's what happens when you get a bunch of nitwits in office and they have power to pass laws but no real common sense or knowledge about the subject matter.

I hope you can get them to see reason! Let us know what happens!

It a beautiful thought... all birds should be able to be birds and of course all of us bird lovers do what we can to make our best in that matter... but has it really gone that far as to the point where we stop and say, lets not keep pets. I can agree to that a parrot that has been caught in the wild probably will suffer from being kept as a pet... but most of our pet birds are raised in captivity and couldnt stand a chance in the wild and have adopted quite well to the life as pets.
So I can appresiate the thought in this proposition, but as you say it seems like something taken out of the blue, and not by people familiar with bird keeping.
I hope our pet bird organisations can come up with some good arguments to why this is beyond resonable.
In the end... I guess this will lead to people not following the laws and maby shy away from forums like this afraid someone is going to find out about them keeping pet in to smal cages... and then we have a greater problem (people not able to seek information about their pets when needed). It could also lead to the point where it gets a class issue, and the average person not be able to accomodate birds at home.

If we create to mutch of a stir, I hope we can turn this ship around.

Ill keep you posted... but I guess it could take some time.

[Sally]

I don't know how they can even call this size enclosure a cage, that is an aviary in my book. And not everyone has room for an aviary, especially in very cold climates like yours.

I'm never comfortable with laws that try to regulate the intelligence or common sense of people--it usually results in people going underground and hiding what they are doing, which isn't good for anyone. And you just can't make anyone smarter by passing laws! If we had this law here in the U.S., I would have to get rid of all my birds, as my setup does not meet this criteria.

And have they taken into account the breeders who cannot mix their breeding pairs? If you are working with a species that is fairly aggressive, often they need to be in a cage by themselves. So they expect a breeder to supply an enclosure that size for each pair of birds? Wonderful thought, but few can accommodate it.

I agree with the others, get your bird owners/breeders to write the proper government authority, explaining why this is a bad law. If you have bird clubs, they can get letter-writing campaigns going. That is what we have been trying in the U.S. So far successful, but the do-gooders don't give up.

[monotwine]

Just had a mental image of a breeder set up.... Could you imagine what size property you would need if each pair needed an 8 cubic meter aviary by law!
Wow that would put many out of the running.

[Jossi]

Just had a mental image of a breeder set up.... Could you imagine what size property you would need if each pair needed an 8 cubic meter aviary by law!
Wow that would put many out of the running.

Yes... I dont know how they are going to deal with that... seams crazy!