What to do about 3 girls and 1 boy?

[sarehptar]

When I first joined the Finch Forum, I posted this topic asking why one of my shaft-tails was so aggressive. The general suggestion seemed to be that she needed more space, so my dad and I started building a much bigger cage. (Inside dimensions are 49x26x46 when not divided into two cages, and here are some older WIP photos: [link] and [link].) Now the new cage is nearing completion, and I'd like to move the birds into it.

However, in the time it's taken me to build this cage, I discovered the pet store did not give my parents two pair, but one male and three females. The male had already formed a bond with one female, leaving the other two desperate for attention, which was most likely the source of Devil's aggression. So I moved the extra two hens to their own cage a long while back, but that's really not ideal given that I poured quite a bit of time and money into making this huge cage for all of them....

The cage calculator says the big cage can fit 4-5 birds without any regards to height. Do you think, if I separate them for any breeding that might happen (in probably the far future) and provide no nests when they are all together, that I can fit 6 birds into this large cage given that it is so tall?

I've heard that six is a better number to keep than four, and having three males and three females seems like it would be more harmonious than one male being fought over by three different girls...

Can anyone tell me what it's like adding two new birds to a group that has been together a long time by themselves? I'm worried I will invest in two new males and then end up with even more fights/aggression on my hands... What if I add two males and they don't bond with my free hens and try to court Shorty instead?

Advice really, really needed!

[debbie276]

Not an expert on shaft-tails but wanted to say BEAUTIFUL cage!
If you've already had to separate them because of aggression I don't think it will be any better if you put them back together.
Personally I wouldn't put more then 2 pair of birds that get along in that size cage. Waiting to read what others think
Good luck

[Martie]

I agree with Debbie on all counts. The cage is beautiful - a wonderful job.

It sounds as if the male wants to breed and is really ready to do so. Shafttails can be aggressive when in breeding mode and you did the right thing to separate them. I would set up a nest for the pair and let them get going - and then decide what you'd like to do with the extra hens. You could get a male from the first pair and use it to breed with one of your spare females - or you could find a breeder and do a trade.

Good luck with them!

[sarehptar]

Ah, sorry, should have clarified--the male bird is not aggressive and never has been, even when all four where in the same small cage (30x20). It was only my hen, Devil, who was aggressive, and even then, most of her aggression was not physically harming to the other birds--it was primarily annoying flights backkkk and forth to try and win the perch space next to the male away from the other girl.

I originally separated them because the bonded pair laid eggs and the extra hens were being too nosy/trying to bump Shorty from the nest to take her place and raise the eggs--unfortunately, the pair proved to be terrible parents (I should have let one of the other hens do it!!) and they didn't feed the chicks--with it being completely the wrong size nest due my own inexperience, I wasn't even able to see there were chicks yet, so they died and--these being my first birds--I was a little traumatized. D; (Hence no desire to let the pair breed right away again. Also my parents got them at a pet store which is really not the best, so they may be related anyway.)

As for adding the four of them back together, I'm not afraid of there being any massive fighting (their cages touch currently with no fighting through the bars and they all sleep on the platforms I put in back to back, so they like/tolerate each other to some degree at least), just more afraid that the two extra hens will annoy the bonded female and try to "steal her man" and cause general unrest.

I also thought of doing a trade to make it two pair, BUT my third hen, Blotch, is slightly deformed--she's not handicapped or anything, but she's not going to win any breed-standard prizes or be particularly desirable breeding stock in anyone's flock, so I doubt anyone would take her. And I'd really rather not trade a beautiful hen (Devil is the prettiest one I got!) just to pair a male up with a hen with genetic flaws.

Lastly, I also have the problem of space. This new cage is large, and I currently live at home with my parents due paying off college debts. At the rate I am able to save and pay off debts right now, I won't be able to move out for about one more year. My parents have three large cats. So my birds stay in my bedroom and nowhere else. Once I put the large cage in--which I cannot avoid doing anymore, given how much we sank into it--there will be no real room for the two 30x20 cages I have now except in emergencies. (I have a smaller hospital cage which currently lives in the closet, but actual birds cannot live in a closet! XD) Since the original diagnosis of Devil was that she just "needed more space," we didn't exactly plan on needing multiple flight cages in same the room.

So basically, tl;dr:
My hens are the brats here, and it's pretty obvious they're trying to steal the man (who would happily breed with all of them, I'm sure. DDDD;)
Trading would be pretty much impossible unless I found someone willing to take a genetically flawed bird.
My bonded pair are not very good parents and may be related, so I'd rather not breed them to make a male.
I soon won't have room for multiple flight cages except in emergencies because my space is limited and will be so for the next year.

Besides feeling kind of trapped between a rock and hard place right now, I'm trying to sort through the options:
Find a breeder and buy a male then ask if the breeder will take Blotch for from me for free, which I would feel kind of bad doing. (I've never abandoned an animal or asked someone to take one off my hands...). Then I would hope that the two pair don't bother each other.
Get two more males and make three pair in the big cage, but provide no nests until next year, when I can move into a place of my own with no cats and have room to separate them into separate breeding cages--if I cave in and let them raise clutches at all after the traumatizing experience the first time 'round.
Offer both my extra hens up for sale or free to a good home and have just two birds in that big cage (which, ugh, I don't think my parents will let me do because the birds were a gift from them in the first place).

Finally, my last option which I really don't want to resort to: The big cage can be divided horizontally into two cages, each about 23 inches high (so 49x26x23). (I designed it that way! ) The cage calculator still says that four birds can be kept in that space because of height not being as important. Theoretically, this was so I could divide my "two pair" for breeding in the first place. I could leave the divider in and keep them separate forever.

I would really prefer not to keep the four birds I have this way, because I wasn't smart enough to make the divider see-through, so I will need to buy another full spectrum lamp, as well as a whole other set of dishes, etc. (The cage is hardware cloth, so hanging things off it makes me nervous = all covered floor dishes.) I also think that not being able to see the other pair but hear them would be very frustrating for the two hens, as they shriek the moment I take the boy's cage away for cleaning and I love my birds to the max but if they constantly shriek because they can't see each other, I might go crazy. This is still all in my small 10x11' bedroom...

Theoretically, the same would be true if I got two more males and had three pair. If two pairs were fighting, I could divide the cage so that those pairs could not contact each other. (Now the problem would be if all THREE were fighting... ). Again, however, dividing the cage is not ideal because I designed and built this thing with no wood-working or engineering experience... Ugh, not to mention I'd have to have some place for quarantine of new birds, and by the time that was done, if there were problems, I probably wouldn't be able to take any new birds back to where I got them...

I guess I should just make pro and con lists...

[sarehptar]

Oh my goodness that last post was so long. Sorry, I ramble when I'm upset about things... If anyone can parse through that, some more perspective on the added info would be nice.

[dcompt]

I have no shaft tail experience, so no advice. I just wanted to commiserate with you. It's frustrating when we try to best we can for our birds and run up against problems like this that just happen. Don't feel like you're alone - I've even had to separate societies in unusual situations. It's extra hard when there are real constraints on space and funds.

I hope that the experts will check in soon and help you decide what's best among the actually possible options.

[cindy]

I raised shaft tails for a few years....Free flighting them together is a risk, mine co-existed as a group, 6 offspring and the parents. After about a year and a half in a larger flight...5 ft long I started to see aggression, the one dominant son and daughter started chasing, it turned into what I call dangling...the aggressor catching the "intruding" bird by the wing or top of the head (feathers) holding onto them as it tried to get away, resulting in the bird literally dangling in mid-air from it's siblings beak. I had to separate the two aggressors immediately from the group. I did loose one shaftie, the injuries suffered from being dangled by it's wing took a toll on the bird.

I do not recommend breeding two pairs in the same cage, it is fine for free flight but breeding should be done in individual cages, either breed one pair in your flight and the other in a separate cage or flight. Breeding both pairs in a flight could result in the pairs bickering and chasing to keep each of their claimed territories theirs. JMO based on experience.

[sarehptar]

Yeah, sorry, that might have kinda gotten lost in the lonnggg post: I would definitely not be breeding them anywhere pairs could come into contact with each other.

Regardless of whatever trading or buying, etc. I do, there will no nests in the big cage without it being separated so they cannot even see each other. And that's if I do even try to breed in the future, as right now I don't have the space or resources or strength of heart for that.

In your experience, is this breed just too aggressive to be kept in a group, even if there are no nests?

(More and more I wish my parents had just gotten Gouldians!)

[cindy]

they had no nests for almost two years, they got along well until the last few months. the cage size you described is in my opinion to small for all your birds. I would put the pair in one cage and the two extra hens in other...especially if there has been aggression seen already. To me they at times made zebra aggression seem minor compared to the aggression I witnessed. The desire to keep them all together is nice but they (male and female) will harm other to protect what is theirs. It surprised me to witness this since prior they were peaceful for almost 2 yrs together.

If you put them in a group you need to watch them, if they look like they are trying to keep one away from their area and the one being bullied is on the bottom grate (not roosting) and looks off then you need to intervene or if blood is drawn it is best to keep them separate...hens will target hens to keep them away from a mate.

[Sally]

sarehptar

Perhaps you could explain to your parents that though you really love the gift, you have since found out that four Shaft-tails can't be kept in the same cage. You can then ask them if they would mind terribly if you swapped out the Shaft-tails for some other birds that would coexist peacefully in the lovely cage you have built. Once you have some other birds, especially if you went for Gouldians, I'm sure your parents will love them.

[sarehptar]

Edit: Oops, sorry, I missed Cindy's response. 49x26x46inches (4ft x 2ft x ~4ft) would be too small for four birds? Is that just because they are shaft-tails?



For Sally:
Ha ha, I don't know if I could do that personally. I've had them for several months now (I got them in early May), so I've really grown attached. Even though they cause trouble, they're still my little guys... girls... I think it's hard because these are my first birds and even though they were really unexpected, they're so expressive and funny and have such big personalities in such tiny little bodies. I think I might feel really bad swapping them out for the next set... (But in the future, I'm only getting PASSIVE birds, for real! My parents told me they picked the shaft-tails over the gouldians because the store clerk told them the gouldians were "too fragile" for a first time bird owner and that shaft-tails were "hardier." Yeah, and "harder" to keep in general! Sheesh.)

Since it's either 1) combine them or 2) get rid of them or 3) get more of them and pray for the best at this point, when the big cage is done in the next week or so, I think I'm going to have to try to combine them. If the free hens start to harass the bonded hen and extra greenery, perches, dishes, etc. don't prevent that, I will pull the extra hens back out and think really hard about what to do with them, maybe having to put the emotions aside.

[henrietta]

I have never had shaft-tails, but I have dealt with trying to house quarreling zebra finches, so I know how you feel. Especially wishing that some finch expert could just tell you the answer to how to fix all this!!

Here's a bit of advice: In my experience, even though I as the human had no intention of "breeding" and they had no nests, that did not stop them. They knew they were a pair and therefore they had the breeding mind set, even without nests.

A lot of our situation is really similar actually!! I also had to separate the two pairs, wait for a larger cage, and then try to re-introduce them. Mine, as well, were not actually "fighting", just chasing and squawking. But for some reason, after about a month apart, when I re-introduced everyone into the big cage (4 ft long by 2 ft wide by 3.5 ft tall which for 4 itty bitty teeny tiny finches, really should have been big enough in my opinion!! lol but they didn't ask me!!) they started fighting much worse, like actually cutting each other and pulling feathers. At that point, I decided to re-home them all. And I had them for about 6 months at that point, so I really felt bad, but just like you, I had put all my eggs into one basket with that big cage idea and had no way of getting another big cage (and it would not be fair to just leave two in the big cage and then have two in a small cage--plus it would look ridiculous!). Now I have owls and cordon bleus and it's much more peaceful and stress free.

So I guess that's not really helpful advice lol sorry!

Okay, here's my actual advice: When your birds start to stress you out more than they bring you joy, it's time to make a big decision. You may not ever reach that point, and I hope you don't, but when I spent most of my time worrying and sitting by the cage with the spray bottle to break up fights, then I knew I was not having fun and they were living very stressed and potentially dangerous lives. Just make sure you give them to a home you can trust, and you really don't need to feel that guilty about it. It was my first time with birds as well, and you didn't even get to research this type first!! So, anyway, I'm not trying to tell you to get rid of your birds, I'm just saying what worked for me. Sorry if it's a downer. Good luck!! (And sorry this is so long!!!!)

[cindy]

I also want to suggest not spraying them...it will not stop the behavior, eventually you need to walk away from the cage to run errands, shop, eat, sleep etc...the behavior will continue. If you are concerned have two cages then separate the pair from the two hens, especially if the pair are in the breeding mode, even if there is no nest they will still guard what they feel is theirs.

[Nerien]

I do not have experience with shafttails. However, while it does seem a shame to alter that big beautiful cage you have built, a 23" high cage is not so bad, especially with the length and width that you have. There is still room to swoop up and down a bit as they fly, perch up top, go down to the bottom to feed or bathe. It might not be ideal, but it should keep both pairs safe and happy until you can get your own place and more cages.

[sarehptar]

Thanks so much for all the advice everyone! It is so wonderful to hear from people who have experience or similar situations.

As an update from me, my parents have actually come up with what I think is the best solution! And really, even if they were kind of dumb when this whole thing started (literally, their logic when getting me these birds was "You're depressed, but you love birdwatching. So we bought you birds so you can birdwatch in the house!" I'm not even kidding...), they deserve a hand for at least following through on what they started! But also, they are massive enablers.

My parents have suggested that I go ahead and find two more males, BUT, instead of trying to combine them all into the big cage, we will put the divider in (here's a crummy cellphone pic I just snapped so you can see how the divider works), making two 49x26x23" cages. My parents have offered to pay for a second lamp or make it so that full spectrum light can somehow get to both cages by mounting the light on the side or middle, etc.

Then, for the third pair, we will take the two 30x20x20" white flights I have right now and combine them, making a 60inch flight. We will either add a tray at the bottom of the big cage to set the 60in on, making it sorta "three tier" or--and this is where my dad really is generous--remove the small shelf I have high on the wall and replace it with a shelf system long and wide enough to safely hold the 60inch.

That way, space won't be (more of) an issue, I don't have to get rid of any of my birds, the pairs will not be housed together, and I won't have the two hens shrieking because they can't see the one male anymore. This solution also means my white flight cages won't go to waste either! (I was wondering what I was going to do with those...) In the future, I'll transition to passive birds and then I can finally use the big cage as, well, a big cage!

Still got a few kinks to work out this plan, but at least now there's a plan that won't make me feel like I'm torturing my poor birds...