FINCHforum

Hey, all--

I've been browsing through the forum in recent days while setting up a new cage for a pair of finches I plan to add to my household very soon. Thanks in large part to the valuable insight offered through this forum, many of my questions are now answered. But I thought I'd run a few of the remaining ones up the flagpole for what it's worth. Please forgive my lengthy initial post -- I promise subsequent ones will be considerably more brief!

To be honest, after devoting literally 2 entire days to researching cage lighting needs, I'm now more perplexed than ever! Seems opinions vary quite widely. Any expert insight would be greatly appreciated. I'm taking very seriously my pending new bird-owner responsibilities, and want to "get it right" from the start.

BACKGROUND DETAILS
Cage size: 30" wide x 24" deep x 36" high (Avian Adventures' Loro flight cage)
Natural lighting: Very little. Cage will be approximately 18 feet from north-facing windows -- unfortunately the only windows in my condo, and the only possible spot I can place the cage without dramatically reconfiguring my home.
Species: To be determined, although I'm leaning toward Gouldians.

GENERAL QUESTIONS
1) Cage quality: I've been fairly disappointed with the quality of the cage I received. Of the 4 doors, 3 are very difficult to open & close due to apparent poor latch alignment. I noticed several very small spots where the paint does not cover the metal. Finally, half of the roof is not usable due to poorly aligned tabs. Believing it to be a mere defective product, the retailer is sending a replacement cage. But I'm concerned the real issue is a quality-of-manufacturing one (i.e. Made in China), rather than an isolated bad cage. After paying hundreds of dollars for this cage, I will be sorely ticked-off if it ends up rusting after just 6 months of use (about the time the warranty expires)! Do my concerns seem legitimate, or am I being nit-picky here? Aside from the matter of not wanting a rusty cage in a corner of my living room, does rust pose a threat to bird health?
2) Shelf: I realize that natural perches are preferable, and plan to add several. But I've also ordered a 12"-wide metal shelf. Is that too large for a cage this size?

CAGE COVER:
Due to fact the cage will be in a room where lights often will be during part of the time the birds should be sleeping, I opted to purchase a cage cover. The retailer mistakenly sent the wrong size, so there is a 1" gap between the bottom of the cover and the cage bottom. After washing the cover at some point, I suspect the gap will become even greater. Is a 1-3" uncovered gap around the cage a concern? Or is 95% coverage sufficient?

CAGE LIGHTING:
Here's where I'm in most need of help.
1) Fluorescent vs. compact fluorescent: Is there any difference in the quality of the light emitted from these 2 types of bulbs, especially from a bird's standpoint? Preferences?
2) Watts: Is a single 20-watt bulb sufficient for this size cage, or is 15-watt ok?
3) UVA/UVB: I've noticed that many full-spectrum bulbs indicate UVA/UVB output, but many do not. Should I consider any bulb without this detail, or only those that specify?
4) CRI: I'm noticing that the CRI rating varies considerably for full-spectrum bulbs. As I understand, 100 equates to natural sunlight at noon, so the closer to this the better. I've found some compact fluorescents with CRI around 91-93 and specified UVA/B, and some fluorescents with 98 CRI but they do not indicate if they emit UVA/B. Which is more important -- a bulb with a higher CRI, or one that is lower in CRI but a specified UVA/B output?
5) Night light: I'm considering a fixture with a built-in nightlight (3 blue LED lights within a single bulb). I use a nightlight in my bathroom with a single white LED light that is quite bright, so I'm wondering if the 3-LED bulb may be TOO bright, even though it is blue? Any thoughts? Are nightlights even useful at all for finches, or is night fright more a problem just for other species?
6) Placement: I'm planning to suspend the fixture from a loop inside the cage's peaked roof. This loop is 8" from the top of the cage. How much clearance do I need between the bulb and the cage top -- is 1" sufficient?

Again, very sorry to pose so many questions -- probably not the best way to introduce myself. lol I realize I'm probably over-analyzing the lighting issue, but I do want to ensure my birds get what they need.

DC,
Great to research first...cuts out a lot of disappointments down the road...or should I say should...
Too bad about the cage...hopefully it was just with this particular one and the replacement will be up to par.
Gouldians would be an excellent choice..they are quickly becoming one of my favorites. They are beautiful, easy to breed and so many color mutations that you will never tire of them. They also are not hyperactive and do well in cages/flights.
I use regular daylight flourescent bulbs but I also have unlimited Florida sunshine and I rotate my birds to take advantage of this...so I don't have any insight there...
The cover being short should not be a problem. It should make the area plenty dark to stimulate roosting. Though I do wonder how you would use a night light when you have the cage covered?
Finches can suffer terribly from night fright. They don't see well in the dark.
Welcome to the finchworld.

Thanks for your insight, Candace -- really appreciate hearing from someone with your experience. (And BTW, I lived much of my life in Florida, including several years in Tallahassee -- and visited PC Beach quite often! I'm truly a beachboy at heart -- I literally learned to walk on Daytona Beach, and Florida still seems very much home to me 10 years after moving to DC. And believe me -- after receiving more than 4.5' of snow this month, I'm trying to remember why I ever left!)

I'm considering a nightlight + cover for one simple reason: The birds will be in a side corner that is still very much a part of my living space, and I'm a nightowl who often tends to be up late -- certainly past the time I know the birds need to retire. I live in a loft condo with a very open floor plan -- no "quiet" rooms. I thought the cover would help to minimize the effect of any household lights that I may have on during their sleep hours (9pm-7am), while also preventing the birds from being visually disturbed as I move -- hopefully quietly -- around the living room during those hours. I also will at times have a television on approximately 20' from the cage, though I realize I'll need to try weaning myself off those late movies whenever possible!

But rather than plunging them into total darkness for much of that time when I AM asleep, I thought perhaps a nightlight would prevent night fright. Good to know that can be a problem with finches, thanks for confirming.

I intend to do all I can to provide about 10 hours of quiet time for them each night....but in case it ends up averaging 8-9 hours many nights, do you think that would cause a significant health or behavioral problem for the birds? Or is it mainly a matter of them getting whatever number of sleep hours they are accustomed to getting?

Any preferences on regular fluorescents vs. compact fluorescents? Do both types generally rate equally well in terms of light quality -- CRI, UVA/B output, low flicker, etc.? (Over recent days I've learned MUCH more than I ever wanted to know about lighting, and it seems the more I learn, the more I realize I don't yet know!)

Hi and welcome....I use full spectrum bulbs, my cages are in a room with triple sliding doors and a large window. They get the morning and afternoon light plus the full spectrum lights at the top of each cage.

At night I used two aluminum hoods with red bulbs (Target carries them) to act as a night light for each side of the room the cages are on. I clip on on each section of shelving. It lights the cages up just enough for them to see but because it is red it is not bright and they can sleep.

Hi DC,

I did a search for that cage, as I couldn't picture it. As far as cage quality, unfortunately, most of the cages on the market are made in China, with the inherent lack of quality. I have HQ cages, and I do have rust problems on them where I hang baths, as lots of water gets splashed on the bars. As far as a 12" shelf, you will probably find that it is pretty large for that cage. What you will find with finches is that the more they can fly, the better, so keeping the cage as uncluttered as possible is best. Most finches love a small swing. A couple of perches made of natural branches you cut outside, and they will be happy.

I've never covered any of my cages, so someone else will have to help you on that. I think the birds might freak more at the motion of the cover coming off than any movement in the room. Most of my birds are in the spare bedroom, but they are now spilling into my dining room, which is open to my living room. This is a small house, so the TV isn't that far from them. I am a night owl, and often on the computer late at night (the computer now sits on my dining room table), with the TV blaring. The cage lights are off by this time, and the birds are used to me being on the computer, I guess, as they seem to sleep anyway. I do keep the lights off in the dining room, and move quietly when I get up from the computer. Obviously, the birds in the dining room are not getting the peace and quiet that the birds in the spare room get--that is why my breeding birds are in the spare room--but they don't seem to be bothered by it either.

I wouldn't fret too much about the lighting. There has been so much discussion lately about proper lighting, and many feel that it is difficult to provide enough UVB, etc. I light all my cages because I enjoy seeing the birds in good light, but I just buy el cheapo daylight bulbs, and then I supply the vitamin D3 they might get from expensive bulbs with diet, or you can use vitamin supplements. I use fluorescent bulbs, but that is just because many of the fixtures I use are shop lights which lay on top of the cages.

I can't quite picture how you plan to hang a light. The loop is 8" from the peak of the roof, yet if you hang the light from the loop, the light will be 1" from the roof?

Night lights are almost a necessity, finches will occasionally panic at something during the night, and if they have a dim light, they can find their way back to their perch and calm down.

I forgot to mention that I am a reformed cage coverer! I no longer cover my finch cages only my lovebirds cage since she will decide in the middle of the night to blurt out her name of ask"whatcha ya doing?" along with playing with her bells.

Some finches will sit still when you cover them, my owls always beat me to lights out and were in their nests before I covered the cages. Other pairs fly frantically around as the covers came over the cage no matter how slow and will not go back to the roosting spot or nest. It took longer to wait for them to settle back down and perch. I don't like my birds to hold onto the side of the cage to sleep or risk injury because the cover spooked them.

I decided to not cover anymore with the help of folks on the forum (Xcoverers anonymous) and now just leave the soft red bulbs lit for them to be able to settle down. Most of the time they sense the hour and are nesting already when the lights go out. I turn the cage lights off about 30 minutes before the room lights go off.

As far as lighting goes I did at one time speak to our avian vet, the special lighting that supplies vitamins needs to be a certain distance, if I can remember I think I was told 6 inches from them and they have to sit for a certain amount of time near it to benefit from it daily. It doesn't help if the light is on top of the cage or on one side and they move away. There are supplements like Sally suggested along with foods that contain the D3.

Walmart carried daylight small tube bulbs and under the cabinet fixtures. Lowes carries the longer daylight and full spectrum tubes and bulbs along with the fixtures. The long shop light fixture and be attached to the side of the cage by drilling a hole using a bit made to go through metal. You can fix it to the cage by using stainless steel hooks,nuts, washers and bolts. You can even mount them to the wall.

I love the cage you are looking at. If you give them plenty of greens around the side and in the corners and around nesting sight they will roost in that.

Wow, what to add ? these guys and gals seem to have it covered .. nothing new there

Would just like to add i love seeing people doing their research before purchasing the birds, it benefits birds as well as keepers, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!

Congrats

Interesting - a next door neighbor you've seemingly been to me in multiple locations! I grew up in Tallahassee and graduated from FSU and I'm in Pasadena, MD now and work in DC..
Either I'm stalking you or vice versa! Just kidding.

anywho..

DCbeachboy wrote:
2) Shelf: I realize that natural perches are preferable, and plan to add several. But I've also ordered a 12"-wide metal shelf. Is that too large for a cage this size?

It seems rather large, to me, for a cage that is only 30x24 - what do you intend to use it for?

DCbeachboy wrote: CAGE LIGHTING:
Here's where I'm in most need of help.
1) Fluorescent vs. compact fluorescent: Is there any difference in the quality of the light emitted from these 2 types of bulbs, especially from a bird's standpoint? Preferences?

The biggest difference between fluorescent vs. compact fluorescent or CFL bulbs is the ENERGY it uses, not necessarily the quality of light. Within both options you will have different color temperatures available to choose from. From an energy conservation standpoint CFL bulbs will always be "better" than regular fluorescent.

DCbeachboy wrote: 2) Watts: Is a single 20-watt bulb sufficient for this size cage, or is 15-watt ok?

Not in my opinion - because of the height, I think 2 CFL bulbs that are equivalent to 60w output would be best. And if I were you I'd invest in an infrared reptile bulb for the use of a hospital cage if necessary.

DCbeachboy wrote:3) UVA/UVB: I've noticed that many full-spectrum bulbs indicate UVA/UVB output, but many do not. Should I consider any bulb without this detail, or only those that specify?

If they do not indicate UVB/UVA then they are not full spectrum, plain and simple. However, I do not personally feel they are necessary. I generally get the n:vision daylight CFL bulbs from Home Depot, or the GE Sunshine fluorescent strip lights from Lowes for the cages that have strip lighting.

DCbeachboy wrote: Are nightlights even useful at all for finches, or is night fright more a problem just for other species?

Many people offer some sort of minimal "moon" bright light at night (Dr. Seuss I am..) in the event of night frights. I have never really had problems with this (that I know of ) so I don't have night lights for my birds. But it's not a bad idea..

DCbeachboy wrote:6) Placement: I'm planning to suspend the fixture from a loop inside the cage's peaked roof. This loop is 8" from the top of the cage. How much clearance do I need between the bulb and the cage top -- is 1" sufficient?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If it's an exposed bulb, even though the CFL's don't get too hot, I would not place it INSIDE the cage. I would recommend using it outside of the cage via an aluminum clamp fixture or something.

DCbeachboy wrote: I'm truly a beachboy at heart -- I literally learned to walk on Daytona Beach, and Florida still seems very much home to me 10 years after moving to DC. And believe me -- after receiving more than 4.5' of snow this month, I'm trying to remember why I ever left!)

I am from Virginia, though it was the coast...grew up with sand in my toes.... but I prefer warm sand Love it here as I am a beachgirl truly at heart

About the lights... In my breeding building I use the sunchine or the daylight bulbs from Lowe's. These terms are just an adjective to describe the color. The birds seem to prefer them and their colors look more natural than in the normal blue fluorescent bulbs that make me sleepy There are suppliments that provide the calcium and the vitamin D3 and magnesium providing absorbtion, such as Calciboost or calcium Plus.

I do not cover my cages either but have a small under the counter fluorescent strip that I leave on. It is enough night light for the entire room. Some use Christmas light strings and with the LED's they can be cost effective also.

You may consider a folding screen to simply surround the cage at night. This would block much light,traffic/movement, and sound away from the birds attentions.
I have for many years (just not currently) kept a caged canary or my daughter's pet budgies in the den with late night TV watching. I never covered them and as long as I kept the overhead lights off and just a lamp on they adjusted and roosted fine. And on those nights of really late night horror movies that kept me and the birds awake... I found they just napped a little more the next day. The canaries lived to be some 14 years so obviously it wasn't that bad for him

Wow -- really great info, really appreciate all the informed insight and wealth of experience you offer, Sally, Cindy, Tiffany, Candace and others!

SHELF

Yes, sounds like I may need to re-think the shelf due to its size. I had intended to use it for either 1 of 2 possible purposes -- at either the far top or far bottom of the cage: (1) as a shelf to eventually hold a nest near the cage top, or (2) as a shelf slightly above the cage bottom, where I can place the birdbath each morning without having the birds walk around directly on the soiled bottom grate.

LIGHTING

MOUNTING: Sounds like there's some confusion about how I intend to mount the light. Here's the deal: The cage has a traditional flat top but above that is a separately enclosed peaked roof that (at center) rises exactly 9" from the top of the cage. Inside that roof is a metal loop intended for lighting use. There is exactly 8" clearance between the bottom of that loop and the top of the cage.

I will be suspending a light fixture of some type from that loop. Depending on whether I select a CFL or fluorescent tube fixture, the bulb could be as close to 1-2" from the cage top (CFL) or perhaps 5-6" from the cage top (fluorescent tube).

PROXIMITY: Is 1-2" too close? I've read 2 very conflicting trains of thought on this -- some say that birds need to be 1-2 feet away from a light source to prevent eye damage, but others say they should be within a few inches to benefit from UVA/B rays. Who's right?

LED BULBS? I would love to find a UVA/B-emitting LED light with high CRI sufficient for daytime lighting use. But they just do not seem to exist (yet). Has anyone else managed to find one? I did find one that seemed ideal (link below), but it didn't list UVA/B. I e-mailed the manufacturer last week to ask, but still haven't heard back. http://www.naturallighting.com/web/shop.php?crn=578 Or maybe yes, I need to just give up the idea of UVA/B bulbs.

CFL: Here's the fixture I've been leaning toward purchasing (at least until Tiffany's recommendation of 2 bulbs). http://www.featherbrite.com/full-dayall ... ights.html Note that the dimensions listed on the site are slightly off; according to the manufacturer, the fixture is 9" high, not 10", and the fixture extends about 1" beyond the bulb -- which means the fixture would fill the entire roof space, but the bulb would be about 1" or so from the cage top. This fixture also has a built-in nightlight (3 blue LEDs).....but that seems a bit TOO bright to me. I know my 1-LED bath nightlight is quite bright for my purposes. Or would the blue light appear less bright to birds than white light? Thoughts?

I do like the greener appeal of CFL. But if a CFL fixture would be just too cramped for this cage, I may have no choice but to opt for a fluorescent tube fixture instead...perhaps one with 2 bulbs if I can find one that will fit. This option would have the added benefit of allowing me to use 98-CRI bulbs, which I haven't been able to find in a CFL -- they all seem to be closer to 91. Is anyone aware of a CFL with a CRI of 96 or more? Or am I just over-analyzing the light issue?

Help -- my head's beginning to spin here!

I personally would lay a 24" 2-light shop light on top of the wire inside ceiling of the cage, run the cord out the roof, and this will give you plenty of light. Don't worry about CRIs or UVA/B, just light it so your birds will show up nice and pretty. I find the daylight bulbs give the nicest effect.

Good grief chile' - why are you going to spend so much money on a light fixture?


Especially if it's just going to be hidden (?) under the peaked roof, anyways?
This is what I use for some of mine:
http://www.acehardware.com/product/inde ... 6133017203

And - I have a ton that I am currently NOT using since switching the the strip lighting with the stacked breeding cages, so I will happily give you two of my fixtures that I spent a whopping $4.95 a piece on :\

Otherwise, a simple 18" under cabinet fixture from wal-mart will put you back about $6.95 if I remember correctly, and the GE Sunshine bulbs are (I think) less than $5 a piece, and you would only need one in this case.
I recommended two fixtures in the event you go with the CFL bulbs.
If you look here on my page: http://www.gouldiansgalore.net/housing.html
You can see the SLIGHT difference between the GE sunshine strip fluorescents and the n:vision daylight CFL bulbs (the bulbs are obviously on top, the strips in the bottom and center breeding cages).
And on the flights, the top has strips (one on each 3' side) and the bottom has CFL bulbs/clamp fixtures (2 on each 3' side).

You can see that the light output and the color of the light itself is virtually the same.
Now if you go with a generic incandescent the light will look awful. It is too yellow, not attractive at all and doesn't show the birds off as well as the daylight or sunshine bulbs do.
Plus the incandescents put off a lot of heat and use a ton of energy. The CFLs and the strip fluorescents stay nice and cool to the touch.

I agree with Tiffany...I use the under the counter lights with the daylight tubes also. I found that the bulbs that come with that fixture are to yellow also so I prefer the daylight tubes, for about $13.00 you would be set for lighting.

I also have some of the hoods with full spectrum bulbs.

DCbeachboy wrote:
PROXIMITY: Is 1-2" too close? I've read 2 very conflicting trains of thought on this -- some say that birds need to be 1-2 feet away from a light source to prevent eye damage, but others say they should be within a few inches to benefit from UVA/B rays. Who's right?

Exactly - the issue of actual absorption points to the birds being within close proximity to the lights (or so I hear), but there is apparently a burn in period where the lights need to be "burned"/turned on for a period of hours otherwise it can cause retinal damage (or so I hear). Apparently as well, you have to replace them every 6 months.

I am not sure how well any of this is actually documented, that's the thing.
I have never used full spectrum bulbs, and have never had an issue.
So, to me.. they are not worth the arm and leg they cost. Especially when you are talking about lighting an entire basement of birds like I am.
For one pair I could probably see justifying the cost more, but if you're anything like most new Gouldian owners - 1 pair will quickly turn into 50 .

You can then buy an automatic timer like this
http://www.improvementscatalog.com/home ... timer.html
plug your light in and save a lot of money

50 gouldians maybe 150