Kefir for finches - anyone tried? OK or not?

[Stephanie]

Has anyone ever experimented with feeding Kefir (a unique kind of cultured milk) to finches? Do you think that's an OK, or a beneficial, or a detrimental thing to do?

[cindy]

this is from our finch info center
http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/safe_toxi ... _foods.php

quote "Raw milk and raw milk products (e.g. dried skim milk [50% lactose], dried whey [70% lactose]), uncultured milk products.6 Because they contain significant amounts of lactose (a specific product of mammals), and because birds which have been tested cannot digest lactose, birds suffer from diarrhea when the diet reaches a level of 10-30% lactose on a dry weight basis.6 Milk products containing lactose should be avoided in favor of other sources that can more safely offer the missing nutrients you seek to supplement"

[Stephanie]

Right, OK. I hadn't thought about the lactose angle - more about the bacterial and yeast fermenting organisms.

Regular full cream milk is ~4.8% lactose on a dry weight basis. Kefir is cultured and has less lactose than that (not sure how much). So getting anywhere close to 10% of the total diet as lactose would be impossible, even if the birds drank milk all day long. That makes dairy theoretically quite viable as a component of the diet, at least from a lactose point of view. I wonder if it's a help or hindrance in other respects?

[debbie276]

If you believe the sterile bowel theory they don't need bacteria
http://ladygouldian.com/content/sterile-bowel-theory

[Stephanie]

Yes, I know, that one baffles me! I am hindered by the fact that I have no means to investigate it and prove/disprove it for myself.

You'd think that avian pathologists would know what they are talking about and certainly have the means to verify these things. On the other hand it just seems so extremely unlikely to be true. Every other critter with a bowel seems to have flora of some kind, and it would seem inevitable that this is so.

Great article - the best discussion I've seen. I'm almost convinced .

[Diana]

Nobody needs milk apart from babies. Birds don't need milk and milk products as they are not mammals and therefore not equipped to deal with it.

[Stephanie]

I have come back to answer my own question...

After a bout of E coli in the aviary that I had to treat with antibiotics, I still lost two Gouldians and others were thin and not coming good as quickly as I had hoped. I followed up with Apple Cider Vinegar which helped to quickly reduce yeast, but they were still not 100%.

So I decided to take a punt - to trust my instincts and my own (human) experience with the remarkable gastrointestinal benefits of Kefir - and offer it to the birds. I gave them free-choice of ordinary pH 6 water, or filtered water containing 20% home-brewed milk kefir. They jumped on the kefir with gusto, taking turns to get at it.

I have given them a fresh Kefir mix each day for three days now, and they are doing well. No problems at all at this stage and the energy in the aviary is good.

I won't be doing this every day. It's just something that I may use intermittently for a while, to see how the birds respond. They are not forced to drink it, so they can learn whether it benefits them or not and make their own choices.

Two particularly sluggish birds that I brought indoors have been forced to drink the Kefir (sorry buddies - experimenting on you!) and they are doing very well. Of course it's warmer, quieter and cleaner indoors too, but it shows that compulsory Kefir, at least in the short term, does not appear harmful to these finches and may be beneficial.

[Sally]

A friend of mine handfed Victoria crowned pigeons, and he always added a small amount of yogurt to his formula. His reasoning was that it added good bacteria for the baby. He was working in conjunction with a group at the San Antonio zoo, and I believe they were also adding yogurt. Of course, those birds are much larger than finches, but the basic theory should be the same.

[Colt]

Interesting. We also added yogurt to the baby hookbills' formula at the pet store when I handfed there in addition to Pedialyte and sometimes apple juice.

[Stephanie]

I think it's fairly well established as useful for parrots, pigeons and chickens. It's for finches that it's more debatable.

Also Kefir has at least 50 strains of friendly bugs, which in humans seem to make it through the intestinal system far more effectively than the one, two or three strains in yoghurts. So it's a bit different in that way too.

I will see how they go.

[cindy]

lactose intolerant people can often tolerate yogurt better than ingesting milk...birds can't digest the lactose but as stated here:

http://eating-made-easy.com/2011/03/26/ ... n-you-eat/
"Yogurt. Most people with lactose intolerance can eat yogurt. The good bacteria (live, active cultures) found in yogurt will help digest the lactose for you."

"Kefir. If you haven’t had kefir before, it’s kind of like drinkable yogurt, but with even more probiotics for even better digestion"

I would still go easy with it since it is still considered dairy.... Morningbird Products and AviTech do make probiotics designed for birds. Birds can not digest lactose so regular milk should be avoided. Kefir does include sugar so watch that as well, lowfat contains 8grams, that is a lot for a bird. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cus ... print=true

[Stephanie]

I think the sugar (lactose) is mostly pre-digested by the kefir culture, so the birds will be ingesting only very tiny amounts. I also dilute it with 80% water so the birds naturally limit how much they consume.

The thing to be most careful about is remembering not to leave it out too long, because kefir is alive and continues to 'brew'. It's not disastrous if it goes a bit beyond maturity, and they will most likely just reject it, but it's not a good idea.

Also, it will eventually stop brewing and just go off like regular milk. So only use very fresh milk to make the culture, to buy maximum time.

I've been leaving it out for the birds for about 5 hours in our current cool weather. I would think no more than 2 hours would be appropriate in hot weather.

I'm on day 6 of offering it to them free choice in the mornings, and all is still well. Some really go for it and others are less interested. I'm letting them work it out!

[cindy]

Personally I would not let milk products sit out for that long, milk will go off quickly as it warms...

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/f ... c3510.html

It is recommended that if milk is left out for longer than two hours (held at over 40 degrees for over 2 hours) it should be discarded. http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/refridg_food.html Bacteria will start to develop.

I still recommend probiotics specially made for the avian species. To me leaving a dairy product that is whole or diluted out for 5 hours is risky. Birds are much more sensitive than we are, they metabolize things differently than us. I think if you are concerned with giving them probiotics, use something designed for birds that can be safely left out for longer periods of time, it can be added to food or to their water.

[Stephanie]

I understand that concern.

I have actually used a well known avian probiotic (actually for chickens because nothing is made for passerines) for many years, but never had any positive response in finches. The results were always either neutral or slightly negative - birds looking a bit sulky/uncomfortable, just like me when I take human packaged probiotics! I did it anyway, to hedge my bets.

So far with the kefir results seem much more positive - for all of us .

Because I am a careful person and can culture the kefir at home, and it costs almost nothing, and it's going well with good energy in the aviary, currently I am favouring fresh live kefir over the costly lab made product.

Note that kefir brews healthily at room temperature and higher, so is more resilient than plain milk, but yes, care is definitely needed.

[Stephanie]

Hey, look what I just found. No wonder my birds are liking this after their E coli infection:

"Recent research revealed kefir grains that were cultured in a medium which had been contaminated with the coliform bacteria E. coli actually inhibited the growth of this organism. ...certain batches of kefir grains completely suppressed the growth of E. coli for a period of at least 25 hours." Journal of Dairy Research.

Well I'll be.