grit or no grit? THAT is the question.

Learn what to feed your birds.
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Anneka
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Post by Anneka » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:42 am

>>>If grit was necessary for digestion, you would find undigested feed and/or emaciated birds for most/any finches who do not receive grit>>>

Very good point Crystal. I agree.

Sometimes though I think of the times when I had 5 budgies, which was many, many yrs ago when I was living in Europe. They had sand on the bottom of the cage and I remember seeing them frequently nibbling on it. So I wonder if they were doing it because their bodies needed sand particles or because they were bored.


>>>For example: offer a parrot the choice between eating seed (which is basically like french fries and candy bars as far as nutrition is concerned) and pellets ....>>>

I would not agree with this. I am not an expert, but wild birds eat seeds primarily. So why making our companion birds eat something different, especially since there are many good quality seed mixes on the market nowadays?
Why taking away from them something they normally eat and enjoy eating? I do not understand why seeds would be considered a junk food. :(

I have heard from many bird owners complaints about their birds refusing to eat pellets. Texture is very important to a bird.

To me switching a bird from a seed mix to pellets is like taking away from us bread, milk, meat, and other basic food we humans have been eating for centuries and making us eat something in a totally different form, something that does not resemble food we are familiar with, something maybe aliens would offer us.

I do not want to cause any argument, I am not an expert, only had several birds in the past and now, some of which I raised and handfed. I truly think that it is all about $ here in the US. Someone got a "brilliant" idea, invented pellets and thought it would bring him/her a lot of money.

I do put some pellets (noncolored) in my fids' dishes but I am not sure how much is eaten since they are v. tiny (Lafaber's finch). Probably not much.

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Post by EmilyHurd » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:50 am

If you research on the internet about seed v. pellets, you'll see that pellets are much much healthier than seed. I feed 70% pellets, 15% seed, and 15% fresh foods.

I know a lady that had a very sick cockatiel who had been eating seed for 8 years. She took him to the vet and they said she needed to switch him to a pellet diet, and it lengthened his life by about 5-7 years.

Some of my finches actually really love the pellets. I use the Lafebers also. For my finches and my cockatiel.

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Rue
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Post by Rue » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:58 am

I'm a pellet fan...best bird innovation yet as far as I'm concerned...hopefully less birds will have malnutrition issues...

...but I also think birds need lots of variety since they're constantly foragin in nature...so as long as they eat enough pellets to get their necessary vitamins and minerals the rest of their nutrition can come from seeds and fresh foods...
A bird in the hand...requires some serious washing up...

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Post by Crystal » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:04 pm

Anneka wrote:
...wild birds eat seeds primarily. So why making our companion birds eat something different, especially since there are many good quality seed mixes on the market nowadays?
Not all wild birds primarily eat seed. Some primarily eat carcasses (e.g. vultures), some primarily eat nectar (e.g. hummingbirds), some primarily eat fish (sea birds), etc. Parrots are a very large group of species all coming from different parts of the world (South America, Australia, Africa, etc.) where the environments, plant life, animal life, etc. is completely different. Their natural diet consists of a wide variety of foods taken from many sources in their natural environment via foraging: bits of fruits, in some cases some nectar, pieces of leaves and flowers, sprouts, some species eat the seed of the fruits they are eating, etc. Surprisingly little information is known about the *full* natural diet of any one parrot species, let alone what *each and every* parrot species consumes in the wild. What is known, however, is that the portion of seeds certain parrot species do consume are not the sunflower seeds, millet, corn, peanuts, pumpkin seed, etc. found in most "parrot seed mixes." The ingredietns found in a typical bag of Kaytee seed mix come from crops mainly harvested in Nebraska, Kansas, North Dakota, and South Dakota--not from the parrots' natural environment. In fact, American parrot seed mixes were born as companies which were already manufacturing grain-based products basically decided to pour the ingredients they had on hand into a bag and label it as a diet designed for birds. Humans have a long history of feeding birds diets which are not appropriate for them--it is very easy to find antiquated advice of feeding "milk sop" or bread soaked in milk to birds; meanwhile we now know that birds are lactose intolerant and do not have the necessary enzymes in their bodies to digest milk sugar.

Finches are also a large group of birds consisting of many different species from all over the world. Each of these birds in the wild has a unique diet. Some finches are granivorous and do eat seed as a major part of their diet; however, in addition to seed (which may only be available for part of the year), even these granivorous birds eat leaves, sprouts and other plant material, and in many cases some insects, minerals which are dissolved in the water sources they drink from, etc. They are not eating *only* seed, and we do not have enough information or resources to provide them the exact diet in captivity that they eat in the wild. The best we can do is gather as much information as we can (via research efforts) about the nutritional requirements of birds, and then design a diet with the ingredients we have available which will meet these requirements. This is what pellets have attempted to do.
Anneka wrote:
I do not understand why seeds would be considered a junk food. :(
Seed is considered a junk food because it is very high in fat and lacks many critical nutrients that birds need (lysine, calcium, available phosphorus, sodium, manganese, zinc, iron, iodine, selenium, vitamins A, D, E and K, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, available niacin, vitamin B-12 and choline). Here is a research article which may interest you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... ch=1941226
Anneka wrote:
I have heard from many bird owners complaints about their birds refusing to eat pellets. Texture is very important to a bird.

To me switching a bird from a seed mix to pellets is like taking away from us bread, milk, meat, and other basic food we humans have been eating for centuries and making us eat something in a totally different form, something that does not resemble food we are familiar with, something maybe aliens would offer us.
The main problem with pellets is that it is difficult to convert birds over to them. Birds eat what they are accustomed to; in the wild, this mechanism helps them to avoid eating toxic foods. They eat what their flockmates eat, what mom teaches them to eat, etc. If you have budgies that you are having trouble converting to a pelleted diet, try putting a mirror on the floor of their cage and putting a few pellets on top of the mirror. As the budgie goes to investigate the new food item, he will see that the bird in the mirror is also approaching the pellets... this convinces many budgies that their flock mate in the mirror considers pellets yummy, and stimulates him to grab the pellet before the bird in the mirror gets it.

As far as making food fun for birds, and this applies mostly to parrots, you should look into foraging (i.e. hiding food around their cage for them to find) as a feeding method. Also it is important to provide foods which are interesting to eat in addition to pellets--fresh fruits and veggies and a few nuts. I do offer seed on occasion to my finches to keep life interesting for them. If you converted your finches to pellets and allowed them to raise babies, the babies would not know a nostalgia for seed, however; they would readily eat pellets.

Anneka wrote:
Someone got a "brilliant" idea, invented pellets and thought it would bring him/her a lot of money.
I think it is a brilliant idea, and although it is not yet perfected, it is a step in the right direction. I hope they continue to research and improve their diets. In the meantime, the ideal balance is to feed pellets as a staple diet (40-70% of the diet) and feed fresh foods (veggies, eggs, some fruit) for the rest of the diet. You can give spray millet as treats on occasion, and it also is okay to offer some seed as long as it is not a significant portion of the diet.

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Anneka
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Post by Anneka » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:11 pm

I should be more specific when saying that wild birds eat seeds primarily. I was thinking about the birds we keep as pets. And I also know that some of them require a different diet, such as lories.

I am also not saying that our birds should eat seeds only. Mine get seeds and veggies, fruits, tree twigs, grass with seeds, etc.

That is a great idea about placing a few pellets on a mirror. I will have to try that one day with my parakeets. The only problem is I just got rid of a mirror toy I kept just in case in a storage, because I am a bit against mirrors for birds. But if it was used only to introduce new food, I would not mind doing it.

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Anneka
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Post by Anneka » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:16 pm

[quote="EmilyHurd"]If you research on the internet about seed v. pellets, you'll see that pellets are much much healthier than seed.>>>>


I understand that pellets are healthier. I do not have to search Internet :)
I am only saying that our birds enjoy eating seeds more.


>>>I know a lady that had a very sick cockatiel who had been eating seed for 8 years. >>>>


Maybe if the bird was eating seeds only w/out any veggies and fruits, no mineral block, no cuttle bone, etc., I would not be surprised.

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Post by Sally » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:19 am

I just converted my finches to a pellet diet. I have always used seed-based diets in the past, then spent small fortunes on all kinds of additives (vitamins, etc). After doing a lot of reading, I switched to Lafebers pellets, though there are also others that I believe are equally as good. I did take a month to make the switch, starting with replacing their bowls of seed with bowls of pellets for a short period of time, then gradually lengthening the time the pellets were in the cage, till the pellets were in the cage 100% of the time.

My fids get spray millet once every 7-10 days, oyster shell grit and cuttlebone, and various veggies and fruits on a daily basis. The waxbills get mealworms or an insectivorous mix in additional to the pellets. Since the Lafebers is fortified with vitamins, etc., I don't have the extra expense of additional supplements, though I will still use a few things in moderation (like when breeding or molting). Eggfood will still be given during breeding season.

Time will tell if this is the best choice, but so far, I am very happy with it. The birds are eating the pellets, they still have their spray millet for a seed treat (plus it gives them exercise, hanging on to the spray while eating), their veggies give them something good for them plus something interesting to pick thru and eat. They seem happy and healthy. The real test will be when I set them up for breeding. I'm anxious to see if they do better with number of eggs and raising healthy chicks.

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Post by Crystal » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:35 am

Sounds like a stellar feeding plan to me! Good luck with the breeding efforts!

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