Dr. Rob Marshall's products...

H2015 · Post by **H2015** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:29 pm

I ordered his products and they're on their way, at first I read amazing stuff about them on LadyGouldianFinch.com but then I'm starting to read bad feedback that worries me.

Can someone please tell me more and in detail why it's not recommended? Any specific experiences?

Thanks in advance.

trevorama · Post by **trevorama** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:02 am

I use the products and haven't read anything bad about them so I can't help you with the bad things you've heard. I also use birdcare products.

Post by **Sally** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:13 am

I ordered the starter pack of Dr. Marshall's products some time ago. The first thing I noticed was that they all (only have 5 Goulds) went into a hard molt. I mean pin feathers popping out all over the place. I had purchased a male that still had pin feathers, and it seemed he was stuck in a molt--had had him for quite a few months, long after he should have been thru with his molt, and he still had a head like a porcupine. He very quickly molted out and came in with nice new feathers, so it did help him. I didn't really have any problems with the products, but I didn't use them too long. They are more expensive than some of the other brands, and I didn't see enough benefit to justify the extra cost. I also switched over to pellets, so mixing that Turboboost didn't work anymore. When I went back to seeds, I wanted to use the seed hoppers, didn't want to have to mix up fresh seed every day. It just seemed like a lot of fuss and bother. And I have more African waxbills now, and wondered if Dr. Marshall's products, having been developed for Gouldians, would be as effective with the waxbills.

I have also used the BirdCare products--the biggest disadvantage is that the directions, measurements, etc., are in grams, and I am too lazy to have to do all that converting! They did send me a personalized program for my birds, but since then, I have different types and different quantities of birds, so the amounts they suggested for me weren't correct any more.

I haven't used the Morning Bird products, though I did get some Thrive to have on hand, and I have heard good things about them. It is very confusing to try to decide what to use for your birds, so I understand your concern. I keep trying different things I hear about on various forums, especially when you read that someone highly respected in the field has been doing it that way for years with good success, makes you want to try their way. I wish I could help you more, as I know you have had so many problems with your Gouldians. I do suggest that you watch them carefully when you start with new products, as not all products seem to work the same for everyone.

trevorama · Post by **trevorama** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:18 pm

Sally-Are you currently using supplements (other than thrive) and if so, which one? I only know of the 3 you mentioned. I seem to use some of each but tend to go back to the birdcare co. I guess having grown up in Canada I find the metric system easier to use!

Post by **Sally** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:22 pm

I'm trying to breed these finches, not very successfully, I might add, so my program would be different than if I had them as pet birds. I belong to the National Finch and Softbill Society, and they have a forum for members only. That is where I have been picking up a lot of tips lately. I am depending on a good finch seed mix and free choice pellets to give them a good basic diet, plus eggfood, greens, and a mix of oystershell/charcoal/eggshells. In addition, but not daily, I give them game bird crumbles with safflower oil, and I add vitamin A&D or Nekton-E to their eggfood. The Gouldians also get kelp, both powdered and liquid. And the waxbills get mealworms and white worms. Maybe my problem is that I keep changing things around, maybe I'm not sticking with any one program long enough. The birds look healthy, happy, singing, lots of nest building, but that's about it. I made up fairestfinches eggfood recipe, and typical birds, some of them love it and others are undecided. I try to offer lots of variety, because I think in the wild they have that variety, plus it keeps them interested. My freezer and shelves are full of different treats, seeds, nestling food, commercial eggfood, and I just rotate things around.

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:31 pm

Sally,

Your observation that you're not sticking with any program long enough could be the key.

While we have tried many different products over the years, we have found that our birds are the strongest and healthiest when we use the Morning Bird program.

While each species may have specific requirements for optimum health or breeding -- i.e., goulds needing calcium & iodine, goldbreasted waxbills needing LOTS of calcium, swees & orange cheeks wanting LOTS of privacy, etc. -- all have the same basic requirements and many of the specific requirements can be applied in a generalized way to make it easier to keep & breed a variety of species.

For example, our flights are a mix of gouldians, societies, blue capped cordon bleus, gold breasted waxbills, swees, and orange cheeks. In order to satisfy the requirements of each pair, the flights are set up with/ contain the following:

-- hanging seed feeder that contains our blend of seed
-- water fountains (to which Calcium Plus and Liquid Iodine are added as needed, as well as Worm Away and Iverlux - to treat for intestinal parasites once a year and preventatively treat for mites 4 times each year)
-- a "fountain" of spray millet (looks more like a retarded spider if you ask me. LOL!!)
-- large treat cups that contain:
- - Miracle Meal (great source of protein, vitamins, minerals & amino acids)
  - Twin Beaks Aviary's Herb Salad (allows the birds to "self medicate")
  - our "Convenience Mix" -- a mixture of powdered oystershell (source of calcium) and Morning Bird's fine ground charcoal (sweetens the gut and aids in digestion), Powdered Kelp (source of iodine), and Trace Minerals Powder (source of 63 minerals finches need)
-- plates of eggfood (our recipe)
-- plates of canned meal worms
-- plates of white worms (which we farm)
-- plates of fresh, grated vegetables (usually a variety of corn, peas, carrots broccoli tops, endive, and cucumber)
-- egg shells (from the eggs we boil for the eggfood)
-- large plastic shallow bowls of water for bathing
-- artificial trees/shrubs/vinery arranged so as to provide optimum flying space as well as lots of privacy
-- lots of manzanita and Sandy perches as well as artificial vines (provides a variety of perch types and sizes to exercise their feet; the Sandy perches also help to keep beaks and nails trimmed)
-- different types and sizes of nests hung in various places (open areas, semi-open areas, and more "private" areas)
-- a variety of nesting material - i.e., jute, manilla, sisal, coco fiber, and sweet grass mix

Our cage bred birds are provided the same except the choice of nests. And, I must say that the flights are FAR EASIER to maintain than the cages. It takes much more time to replace cage trays and clean the used ones than it does for me to sift through the oil absorbent clay to remove droppings! Also, since we use large seed feeders, treat cups, and plates in the flights, we don't have to refill them as often as the cage cups -- with the exception of eggfood and veggies which are removed from all cages/flights after a couple of hours.

The bird room temperature is kept around 74 degrees (via thermostat controlled heaters) and humidity is approximately 50% during breeding (through humidifiers). When the birds are finished breeding, the temperature is increased to around 80 degrees and humidity is decreased to approximately 42%. When the birds have completed their molt, the heaters are turned off since it's nearly summer and we keep the house open until it becomes too chilly in the late fall. Then, the cycle begins again.

When the birds aren't breeding, they are separated by sex -- males in one flight, females in the other. The nests and nesting material are removed from the flights and worms are no longer offered (to discourage any thoughts of breeding). The birds are still offered eggfood, but less frequently and different supplements are added to the eggfood depending on whether the birds are molting or resting.

This method has worked very well for us and has been the simplest in meeting all of our birds' needs so they are strong, healthy, and breed successfully. In all of the years that we have been keeping/breeding birds, only two customers have lost birds they purchased from us -- one bird was lost after it was exposed to another bird (from a different breeder) that was infected with something (never learned what it was) during a 3-day flight from GA to MT, and another customer lost two unweaned society offspring during her 15 hour drive from our home to hers. Many of our customers who purchased birds from us to breed have reported the birds successfully bred and reared their offspring even before the birds were a year old (which we DON'T recommend!!).

The only time we have run into problems with our birds' health was when we switched from the Morning Bird program to the Dr. Marshall program last spring. As I mentioned in a different post on this forum, our birds began exhibiting SBS (sick bird syndrome) shortly after we started using the DM program. However, once we switched back to the Morning Bird program, our birds began to thrive again. The other products/programs we tried (i.e., Bird Care Co., Higgins, Veta Farm, etc.) did not produce the same negative results that the DM program did. But, they didn't produce the same results the Morning Bird program did, either, which is why we use the Morning Bird program.

Our goals have always been to provide our birds with the best possible environment and diet while minimizing the amount of time we have to spend to ensure they have that. The method we use -- the combination of the diet and supplements -- along with the ease of maintenance for the walk-in flights, has made it far simpler for us to meet our goals. At this point, we are developing plans to convert our 2-car garage into a second "bird" room where we can build in 12 more walk-in flights and significantly reduce the number of birds that we have to breed in cages.

Michele

Post by **Sally** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:27 pm

Michele - Thank you for the very informative post! I so appreciate the input from those who have lots more experience than I have. Right now I have breeding cages, and it is lots of work (and mess, because I try to give them quiet and privacy). I think the flights would work so much better--that will have to wait till after this breeding season is over. I didn't know that (LOTS of calcium) about the goldbreasts--I found an egg on the floor of one cage last week, and today I found an egg on the floor of another cage, plus the hen was in the nest, so I have some liquid calcium I can add to their water. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that they all get spray millet--it is one of the few things that EVERY bird loves. They are funny how in one cage, they will gobble up a certain food, and in the next cage, it sits basically untouched--kind of like kids. This breeding season has been a learning experience for me, and I do think that not having a firm program has not helped, plus I have added birds to the bird room. Next year, once I get them all set up, I hope to leave them alone and not be making changes, swapping birds around, etc.

trevorama · Post by **trevorama** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:45 pm

fairestfinches wrote: It takes much more time to replace cage trays and clean the used ones than it does for me to sift through the oil absorbent clay to remove droppings!

What is the product you use? I have a dirt floor in my aviary as I have many plants, but I'm looking for something like that (the oil absorbent clay)

fairestfinches · Post by **fairestfinches** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:51 pm

Hi, Trevor!

It's simply oil absorbent clay. We buy it at our local Walmart in 25 lb bags. Our flights have 42 sq. ft. of floor space and two bags sufficiently covers the floor of one flight. I think the price of a 25 lb bag is around $5.00.

All I do is use a cat litter scoop to sift through the clay under the perches and remove the poop "clumps" once a week. Then, I rake the clay around and it looks brand new. So, a bag goes a looooooonnnnnnggggg way.

Also, the oil absorbent clay is not toxic for the birds. They might even glean some minerals from it if they're adventurous enough to eat it. LOL!

Michele

Post by **Sally** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:16 pm

Hey Michele, most of my breeding cages are galvanized double breeders, used a lot by canary breeders, 34x18x18, with two quite deep trays. I put coastal hay in one tray, on the side that has nest/s--they use some of it for nesting material, and I figure it will soften the fall if there are any tossed babies. I just have to pick out any nasty hay, most of the poop dries and falls thru to the bottom of the tray. For the other tray, I use newspaper, and it looks nasty really fast, plus it smells! Since I'm trying to disturb them as little as possible, would this clay work on the side where I'm now using newspaper? This is also the side where I put a shallow bowl for their baths, so it gets really wet, plus I have some 3" clay saucers I use for eggfood, mealworms, etc., on the floor on that side. Is this the oil absorbent clay you would find in the auto department, to soak up oil spills?

trevorama · Post by **trevorama** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:42 pm

Michele-So the clay is not the same thing as cat litter? I'll have to go check it out because I can't quite figure out in my mind what it is. In the past I've used something called "dry stall" or stall dry or something like that, but sisnce we moved back up to WA (from CA) I can't find it. The floors not wet (totally covered & enclosed) but I do need to water the plants esp now with the heater on everything gets bone dry. Thanks for the tips (I'm Heather, Trevor's my hubby

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