FINCHforum

Always a topic of great debate regarding finches, but not much of a real mystery is their need for grit. There is an excellent article on the use of grit for finches by Roy Beckham at: http://www.efinch.com/grit/grit.htm. The one thing you should also consider adding to the equation is a non-soluble grit.

Mike Fidler, along with his buddy, professor Stewart Evans, have been traveling in the outback of Australia observing the behavior of finches for over 25 years, and yes they eat grit in the wild, picking at all sorts of earthen materials (ie: grit).

Mike offers both soluble grit (shells: Oyster, Egg, etc.) and non-soluble grit (washed river sand) to his finches (except during the Austerity period, where he offers only non-soluble grit). Why the non-soluble grit. Finches have a natural instinct to eat grit, and it gives them the freedom of choice to not always eat a soluble calcium grit when they feel the need to eat grit. They are great little self regulators if given the opportunity to do so.

I doubt most wild finches are finding huge deposits of Oyster Shell in nature, and it is not yet known exactly what percentage of their calcium intake comes from what sources. But the little bits of earthen material they are eating would likely include soluble forms of calcium.

As Roy states in his article, the need for a soluble calcium grit will depend on your husbandry practices. If you are feeding fresh dark greens (such as Kale) on a daily basis, they will probably take in less soluble grit such as Oyster shell. But the important thing is to give your birds the choice, and provide both soluble and non-soluble grit to let them decide. Mike also adds between 5 and 10% charcoal to his soluble grit mix. Not going to go down the road of the charcoal debate discussion, other than to mention the fact that the wild Gouldian and other Australian grassfinches in the region have access to charcoal pretty much whenever they feel the need, as the larger burned out vegetation such as old stumps remain available sometimes for years after a natural fire.

Most importantly, you should not use a liquid calcium supplement in their water as your bird’s primary source of calcium. Liquid calcium supplements should be viewed as a medicine, and used only when a bird exhibits a calcium deficiency even with the right foods in its diet. A liquid calcium supplement in the drinking water forces calcium on your bird, and does not allow the bird to regulate its calcium intake. The same can be said for sprinkling calcium supplements on your bird’s food.

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Mike Fidler (excerpts from the article “In a Bind Over Egg Binding”):

There is another more complex, but unfortunately common cause to egg binding and that of course is calcium deficiency.

This is a little understood problem, with many aviculturists believing all they have to do is to stuff more calcium into their poor birds. Unfortunately this is more often the cause of the problem, and the worst syndrome of this tactic is the practice of adding a calcium supplement to the bird’s drinking water. This is bad because it does not give the bird any control over its calcium intake and frequently leads to overdosing. The effect of overdosing of this type is to cause lesions of the liver and ultimately death.

There are a number of homespun cures for egg binding, most of which can only make matters worse. One of the worst things to do is to increase the calcium level in the diet by adding it to soft foods, sprinkling on the greens, etc. This not only increases the imbalance but can also lead to lesions of the liver.

http://www.savethegouldian.org/mf/egg.htm

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We don’t know how much calcium our birds need, but they do, so let them self regulate their intake through soluble grit and dark greens. If you still have a problem with egg binding, or thin/soft shell eggs even with a good soluble calcium grit available to your birds on a free choice basis, then take a look at the vitamin D3 side of the equation, which is necessary to allow them to assimilate the calcium already in their diet.

Bill Van Patten
http://www.FabulousFinch.com

Great thread!! Thanks for posting this, Bill. Roy Beckham and Mike Fidler are both well-respected finch experts.

When I first started breeding finches, I had cases of egg-binding in some of my hens; I even lost a few hens. This last breeding season, with many more pairs than I have had in the past, I didn't have a single case of egg-binding.

I have been using a mixture of oystershell (which I grind into almost a powder with a coffee grinder), crushed eggshells, charcoal, and trace minerals. There is a cuttlefish bone in each cage, though I may start crushing them up to add to the mineral mix. I have not offered a non-soluble grit. Where would I get washed river sand? I have also used the liquid calcium supplements, though I don't use the recommended dosages--I use a smaller dosage, and not as frequently as recommended, even when breeding (not because I know what I am doing, but because I am cheap--these supplements are expensive. )

I also believe that the birds self-regulate what they need. When I check the mineral cup in each cage, different quantities have been consumed in each cage. Some clean up the charcoal, some barely touch it--the same for the other ingredients, though eggshell is pretty much consumed by all.

I think that good nutrition is key to keeping healthy birds, more important than any other factor.

I agree with Sally, nutrition is the most important thing along with cleanliness.
I use Dr Marshall's F-Vite along with charcoal in seperate cups. The f-Vite has mineral salts, trace minerals along with ten percent grit content. It is really great in my opinon. I grate cuttletone up and sometimes sprinkle it on their wet foods.

I have never had a case of egg binding. Either I am lucky.....or doing something right.

Very helpful, thanks very much.

Thanks, All.

Sally, I haven't found a commercial grit as fine as washed river sand like Mike uses, although you may find something suitable in a feed shop as pictured in Roy's article.

I use ABBA Mineral Grit, as it has crushed oyster, mollusk, and egg shell, charcoal, and non-soluble sea sand. It is the only commercial grit mix I've found that has everything in it I'm looking for.

Bill

Great post fabulousfinch, it all makes sense to me.

I also beleive it is important to allow our birds free choice when providing any nutrients and supplements so I think you empasize an imporant point there.

As for washed river sand, is it as easy as that? Not that I've done this, but surely you can sterilize some commercial river sand and provide that.

Hi Williep,

I would agree with you. And maybe it's as easy as certain commercial aquarium sands found at any pet store. But I'm not sure about the sand materials that are considered Ok. Some are quartz, some granite (which I think is the best bet).

I'm headed to Australia later this month for a walkabout with Mike Fidler in Gouldian country, and I have this question on my list of things to talk about with him. I don't want to offer the wrong advice, so I will wait until I've had a chance to talk to Mike. When I get back, I should have a better answer, as I want to offer a non-soluble grit separately rather than the little bit that is in the ABBA grit.

Also, Mike offers only washed river sand during the Austere Diet period (no calcium grit at all), so I need to come up with something myself on this end.

I'll stay in touch, and post something on this thread when I have a better answer.

Thanks!
Bill

Great, thanks. We'll wait for your input when you return. Remember to post some pics of your trip too.

Oooh, do I ever envy you! Getting to visit with Mike Fidler and see Gouldians in the wild--what a trip! I just started getting the 'Just Finches & Softbills' magazine which mickp had recommended under Resources, and one article said that 90% of finch keepers in Australia have outdoor aviaries. Please post some pics here when you get back.

Will do, Williep and Sally...bought extra memory for my camera just for the trip!!

Bill

great post Bill.

my finches always have grit available. shell grit on the aviary floor (which is raked over daily and changed completely every month), beach sand in another part of the aviary floor and ground oystershell/ ground cuttlefish are available during breeding season.

Thanks, Mick.

Never thought about it, but the shell grit and sand on the aviary floor is a great idea!!!

I'm really looking forward to visiting Australia, as there will be a lot to learn. Most of my time will be spent in the outback, with less time in the Sydney area. Wish I had more time to visit folks to see their setups, but will get to see Mike's at the Save the Gouldian Fund, plus a few other breeders in his area.

Sally mentioned your tip on "Just Finches & Softbills" magazine, and I would agree it's the best periodical publication on finches I've seen! After finally seeing a copy just recently, I ordered every back issue that was available in addition to subscribing. I've been like a kid in a candy shop just catching up on the back issues. Fantastic photography, and great information on husbandry.

Cheers!
Bill

now I'm getting jealous, wish I could see Mikes set up and even more would love the chance to pick his brains.
hope you have a great trip and take lotsa pics to make ev1 here jealous