Commercial egg food

[cindy]

Sojourner, interesting you brought up the "organic" part of the diet....many do not know that there are "organic" chemicals allowed on organic food, there is a list of those that can be used (in the states), some are even in pesticides we use to get rid of feather mites. It is not regulated how many times it can be applied as with synthetic chemicals and if the organics chemicals do not work there is a small group of synthetic/man made that can be used on "organics"

Some of the synthetics/man made are safer than some of the organics.

I was also told you can introduce pathogens, bacteria to your birds via veggies you buy at the store. example, raw corn off the cob can have a white powder mold on it. Corn should always be cooked or use frozen and warm to serve.

My vet recommends a drier diet....

Charcoal...can interfere with medication/preventative and vitamin absorption (even from foods served) quote from a nutritional article for pet birds/includes finches "Grit is finely ground stone or shells. This mineral is needed by some birds to aid in digestion. However, these birds eat their seeds whole and have special organs to deal with the grit. Psittacines and finches shell their seeds before eating them, so they do not require grit; in fact, impactions of the crop, ventriculus and proventriculus in Psittacines and finches may be caused by the consumption of grit. The charcoal in grit interferes with absorption of Vitamins A, B2 and K, and it leads to hepatopathy (liver disease), pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas), renal dysfunction and general malnutrition. Grit should never be given to birds in the parrot/finch family. (DO NOT GIVE CHARCOAL while treating with medication or preventatives, it will absorb the medication/treatment)"

I personally do not serve charcoal or grit (as per my avian vet, I seem to get heck for this statement but I have seen to many impaction cases of friends that have lost birds to both. If you are going to use grit powder/grind it)

[Stuart whiting]

cindy

Absolutely 100% agree,

I don't use charcoal eaither, if anything it causes more problems than it does good,

Many people feed charcoal to Gouldians because it's believed that it cleans there system out which to a degree it does but it's simply no good if one is trying to administer any drugs to the birds because the drugs will be just absorbed into the charcoal

Seriously worth thinking about to all Gouldian breeders

If I feel that the birds need to have there system cleaned through so to speak I just simply use a small amount of Epsom salts in the birds water, it's an old school canary breeders remedy that does work well,

I don't use grit eaither because it can be dangerous if it clogs in the GI tract / gizzard of the birds and I tend to only use very fine oyster shell for calcium intake

[cindy]

The thought is that charcoal clears the body of toxins but charcoal does not "know" what is good or bad in the GI tract and will absorb vitamins, minerals, medication. If the bird is eating charcoal to ease a digestive issue..Charcoal is not the answer... the GI issue could be from disease/parasites and needs to be addressed.

[Stuart whiting]

cindy

Again totally agree

[cindy]

cindy

Absolutely 100% agree,

I don't use charcoal eaither, if anything it causes more problems than it does good,

Many people feed charcoal to Gouldians because it's believed that it cleans there system out which to a degree it does but it's simply no good if one is trying to administer any drugs to the birds because the drugs will be just absorbed into the charcoal

Seriously worth thinking about to all Gouldian breeders

If I feel that the birds need to have there system cleaned through so to speak I just simply use a small amount of Epsom salts in the birds water, it's an old school canary breeders remedy that does work well,

I don't use grit eaither because it can be dangerous if it clogs in the GI tract / gizzard of the birds and I tend to only use very fine oyster shell for calcium intake

Some use 1 drop of bleach to 2 oz of water or chlorhexidine depending on what is wrong... should not be used daily it will destroy the gut flora. I do not use water cleaners either...some are very caustic and can do more harm than good.

[Stuart whiting]

cindy

Yea I know what you mean cindy, I'm onestly only going by what freinds and various other breeders near me all seem to use, as I mentioned above I don't use it myself but there again I'm sought of still stuck in old school mode lols but that's not a bad thing eaither,
Come to think of it going back a good few years I never really heard of many experienced fanciers having many problems with there birds,
A lot of the very old school remedies will still obviously work today,

I use a lot of old remedies meself IE Epsom salts and even witch hazel etc

[cindy]

cindy

Yea I know what you mean cindy, I'm onestly only going by what freinds and various other breeders near me all seem to use, as I mentioned above I don't use it myself but there again I'm sought of still stuck in old school mode lols but that's not a bad thing eaither,
Come to think of it going back a good few years I never really heard of many experienced fanciers having many problems with there birds,
A lot of the very old school remedies will still obviously work today,

I use a lot of old remedies meself IE Epsom salts and even witch hazel etc

Learned over time and understand taking certain measures to prevent illness and keeping diet simple.

(Sent you a pm Stuart!!)

[Stuart whiting]

cindy

Thank you Cindy, I've read and replied

That's also one of my main priorities is to always maintain a simple but stict diet and above all else is very important to actually have the correct diet as regards to the seeds etc as many mixes are not necessarily the correct mix for the birds ,

It's like everything, there's some very good seed companies out there but also a lot of rubbish ones to and one needs to find the good companies that are supplying the right seeds for the mixes being sold

[Sojourner]

cindy

I agree. I'm pretty well aware of the chicanery and skullduggery that goes into the so-called "organic" labels.

It bothers me that there is some charcoal in the mineral mix I use, but it seems to be a very small amount. Hence even more reason to use a vitamin supplement since I can't wave a wand and magically remove the charcoal from the mix. A lot of mineral mixes seem to include at least some charcoal.

I think daily prophylactic charcoal for your birds is a potentially harmful old wives tale. Sadly there is so little peer-reviewed research on dietary issues for our caged birds. But having it on hand for emergencies - such as poisoning or accidental overdose of a medication - could be a life-saver. But only if the bird is still well enough to eat it, so perhaps limited usefulness.

I don't feed corn to my birds, caged or wild. I still haven't decided whether egg bread is good for them given there is so much corn meal in it. So I stick with just using the CeDe egg crumbles (dry egg food). There just doesn't seem to be a reason to bother with the egg bread given they get all the dry egg food they want.

I don't think its necessarily BAD for them and I can see lots of good reasons for a breeder to use it - its a pretty stable way to get a high-protein feed into lots of birds without having to worry about the expense of the dry egg food or the rot-ability of mooshed up boiled eggs. But I'm good with the commercial dry egg food.

I bought some crushed eggshell but since then I've discovered there is already crushed eggshell in the mineral mix, plus there is cuttlebone and the mineral block in the cage with the mineral mix, and they use all of those. I do have oyster shell also (though that also is already in noticeable amounts in my mineral mix so no real reason to have it separately as well), and I've taken to rinsing the shells when I use eggs and microwaving them. Then I just crush and add to anything else in the cage.

They really don't feed from the cup that has the commercial crushed egg shell in it and I'll not bother with it again. They have access to plenty of calcium sources without it.

I really agonized over a lot of this in the beginning, as I felt I'd forgotten so much in the 15 or 20 years since I'd last kept birds, plus so much is different than it was (especially going all the way back 50+ years to when my mother was breeding canaries and finches).

But by now what I've figured out and what works for me is to stick with a good mineral mix (I use the blue stuff, I think from Abba), a good multi-vitamin, a variety of seeds, and using a parakeet mix for their staple. Then the calcium sources - a cuttlebone and a mineral block (score it or knock off the corners so the finches can use it, otherwise its too hard for the smaller finches), some crushed oyster shell (already in my mineral mix), and whatever crushed and heat-treated eggshells come out of my kitchen. Plus greens. And they're doing very well, not getting fat despite being free-fed on nyjer and sunflower seeds in addition to their staple seed.

Oh yeah, and I don't give grit. Just the mineral mix and that's a dietary supplement.

I don't worry too much about it any more for my non-breeding birds.

[Stuart whiting]

Sojourner

Hi fella, I noticed that you mentioned about using mineral mix, if this is mineral grit then this can actually be dangerous and harmful for yer birds as grit can't break down and when swallowed is risking the fact that it can become clogged in the GI tract / gizzard or crop, mineral grit can't easily be digested.
This also applies to charcoal aswell as this can also become trapped and clogged in the birds system.

Finches and canaries hull seed so theoretically don't need grit,

However fine oyster shell is fine to use as this actually dissolves from the birds body acids and is a source of calcium intake

[Sojourner]

It's just a mineral mix, not a grit. Calcium and minerals. Lots of folks on this forum use the same stuff. Not a speck of grit in it.

CALCIUM (MAX) – 34% (MIN) – 31%; DISCALCIUM PHOSPHATE (PHOSPHOROUS) (MIN) – 46%; SALT (MAX) – 3.04% (MIN) – 2.04%

Ingredients: Sterilized Oyster Shell, Mollusk Shell, Sterilized Egg Shell, Sea Sand, Charcoal, Refined Bone Meal, Calcium Propionate, Salt, Potassium Iodide, Iron Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide, Nickel Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Periodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate

I could do without both the charcoal and the "sea sand", but neither component is visible in the mixture to the naked eye so I doubt there's enough of either in it to cause any problems.

I have no idea why they felt it necessary to differentiate between "oyster" and "mussel" shells, but so they did. There are several minerals in the mixture that have a blue-to-green color (copper sulfate is an example) and some that have reddish-to-brownish colors. All of this seems to add up to make the distinctive overall blue color of the mix.

They like it so I'm happy with it.

BTW - looked it up - silica sand is about half the absolute hardness of granite, which is what most grit is made up of (such as for chickens). The particle size is also tiny. I don't know why they include it - it has no nutritional value of which I am aware - but possibly for the same reason I guess they include the charcoal, so the item name is on there and people who think their birds need it will think they are getting what they want, but not in high enough quantities to cause problems. I could be wrong in that supposition, but given I can't see either ingredient with the naked eye, there doesn't seem to be much of either one in the mix.

[Stuart whiting]

Sojourner

Arh... Ok mate, understand,

I do use some vitamin, mineral and calcium supplements meself now and again but mine is in a powder form that I use to sprinkle over the top of me live food

[Sojourner]

Stuart whiting

"live food" - *shudder*

LOL!

Thankfully my Benjies don't seem to either want or need live food.

I don't keep snakes or piranas either, LOL!

[Stuart whiting]

Stuart whiting

"live food" - *shudder*

LOL!

Thankfully my Benjies don't seem to either want or need live food.

I don't keep snakes or piranas either, LOL!

Oh you big girls blouse

All jokes to one side, live food is virtually essential when it comes to the rearing of waxbills and other certain foreign finches, breeding results would be extremely poor or literally zilch if live food wasn't used,

I buy maggots in large quantities and refrigerate them in me bird food fridge which is in me birdroom

[Sally]

There is always confusion when talking about grit. The grit that is needed by birds that don't hull their seed such as doves used to be called gravel. Many supplements sold today as grit are actually mineral mixes. Many breeders use these mineral mixes, usually based on oyster shell. These are nutritional grits that are soluble, and so they can benefit the birds.

Roy Beckham has an excellent article on grit at his website. He explains the difference between soluble and insoluble grit, and why normal birds will not become impacted nor overeat soluble grit. Mr. Beckham is a highly-regarded breeder. He feeds a soluble grit composed of oyster shell, sea salt, cuttlebone, and charcoal. I make a very similar mineral mix for my birds.

http://www.efinch.com/grit/grit.htm

The Finch Information Center has an article which explains why insoluble grit should not be used for finches. Insoluble grit is what used to be sold as bird gravel.

http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/grit_is_not_necessary.php