Observation: Egg vs Insect Food

[dutch]

steve...I have seen this also, birds so weak they can't fly in an avairy that have been kept in small cages

Flight space is a must when keeping birds

[TailFeathers]

There is so much more in hard boiled egg then just protein and cholesterol, egg is the most complete food source you can feed your bird.
I don't see how anyone can say any animal that is constantly hungry and aggressively looking for food at all times is better off then one well feed and able to rest and relax.
It also is a well know fact that birds that are under feed will develop their feathers differently then a normally fed chick. On very unfed chicks they will only have tail and wing feathers (the most important), nothing else till they are weaned and able to eat enough food on their own.
Purposely under feeding your animals is a major form of abuse in my opinion

Your post is completely laughable if you're trying to insinuate that I abuse my birds by feeding half of them insects, while the mother is the one doing the feeding and more than ample supply of foods are available.

[debbie276]

This is highly preferable as egg food has too many downsides in my opinion. Firstly, it contains a lot more nutrients and protein — especially protein, which they do not require. Egg also contains cholesterol and I'm unsure that bugs have so much cholesterol.

There is so much more in hard boiled egg then just protein and cholesterol, egg is the most complete food source you can feed your bird.

We already did a minor type of abuse by raising them outside their natural habitat, it's only fair we give them a life closest to home.

I suspect this is occurring due to hunger and the need to beg their mother for food. They will, at the slightest gesture.. Like eating your hand near the nest, will pop their heads up and start making noises and opening their mouths.
However, the cages on egg food are sound asleep.

Purposely under feeding your animals so they are constantly begging and searching for food is a major form of abuse in my opinion

Laugh if you must, others will understand what I'm saying.

[TailFeathers]

We already did a minor type of abuse by raising them outside their natural habitat, it's only fair we give them a life closest to home.

TailFeathers

Most of the birds we buy are from generations of caged birds, if you take a Canary out of a small cage and place it in an Aviary it takes 3 or 4 days to learn to fly. These animals depend on us for their survival, they can only eat what we give them.

Steve

That is why I'm in the process of reversing this type of abuse. Humans don't need to have huge impacts in animal intervention for entertainment purposes. It's a widely known fact amongst canary breeders that green has the best genes and that a few breed types are very selfmaintained.

Furthermore, I think you need to re-read the posts here. We are talking about what is similar to infant development. If you have birds that are actively being fed and begging for food, they're going to work their entire body from brain to toe. They will stretch muscles, use ALL of their senses and sleep when full. The problem with egg food is the longer time it stays in the crop and longer digestion times which means more sleep and less brain function.

These are a few of the things which I have observed. Obviously the control group with eggs is lacking, so my experiment has already proven my hypothesis to be correct thus far. Further observation will need to be made in order to determine if insect food will still have an edge with my bird when it comes to song development, health and immune resistance to diseases.

What I'm effectively saying here, is that, we need to give birds a lifestyle which is best for their future and as a betterment for their future and I'm testing out that which works best.
The problem is that some people come knocking it down without having tested for themselves. I'm using what works for me and that means I haven't eliminated any possibility of using what others use, hence my participation of feeding egg to my birds.

While criticism and dialogue can have its benefits, it should be done in a manner which isn't so dissmissive.

I know I'm saying this in reply to your post, but I'm speaking to those who have dismissed my methods and not specifically you.

Anyway,

To each his own.

Good luck!

[TailFeathers]

Purposely under feeding your animals so they are constantly begging and searching for food is a major form of abuse in my opinion

Laugh if you must, others will understand what I'm saying.

I see what you're doing. You're selectively posting quotes out of context and you're calling me an animal abuser for feeding insect. Then you have the audacity to claim that a second time and say that I under feed my birds?


Exactly how do I under feed the birds when ample food is provided and the hens are doing the feeding?

You have real problem when it comes to reading and analyzing what was said and what was meant by what was said.

I will do myself a favor and put you on my ignore list for basically trolling my post and laying false accusations against me.

[debbie276]

..

[Sally]

This is a good discussion, please keep it civil. There are many schools of thought on nutrition, but most agree that a varied diet is best, and most agree that protein is necessary when raising babies. Whether this is provided via insect food or egg food is a personal preference. Egg food is certainly a good substitute for the protein from insects that birds in the wild have available to them. It has been used for many decades by many very experienced breeders. Many of the dry insect feeds available to us in the U.S. have fillers. We don't have easy access to foods like 'frozen pinkies' that are so widely used in Europe. Our most common source of live food is mini mealworms, and some of my waxbills can go through several hundred mini mealworms in a day when feeding babies.

Certainly the goal should always be to provide the best we can to mimic what our birds would have in the wild, but let's be honest, when we put them in cages or even large aviaries, it is still not a natural environment for them. A very large, planted aviary with huge populations of insects can still only come close to replicating what they are used to in the wild. We do what we can.

[MiaCarter]

Sally -- Well said.

There are lots of different nutritional strategies and there's no one-size-fits all solution, especially considering the significant degree of variation among species.

I agree that it's best to provide an environment that most closely mimics what you have in nature.
That's why I take the approach that I take -- offering a wide variety of foods and letting the parents choose the foods that they feel are best.

Obviously I cannot supply the all of the precise foods that are available in nature. I imagine boiled eggs and freeze dried bugs are difficult to come by in nature. LOL
But I do the best I can and work to ensure that they have access to a wide variety of nutrients and food types. I believe that animals are naturally attracted to the foods they need to be healthy and avoid deficiency, so with this school of thought, one simply needs to offer a wide array of food items and the birds will work to select the foods they need for optimal health.

I also agree with Dutch that egg is a bit of a superfood.
It's so rich in a diverse range of nutrients. My guys eat a lot of egg year-round. It's their favorite food, far and away.
Dutch, I'm jealous that you're getting all those fresh eggs! So delicious! I wish I was in an area where I could have chickens. They're fun birds with a very delicious perk!

I think Sally said it best....We do the best we can.
Of course it's not ideal to keep a bird in a cage or an aviary. But we do the best we can to ensure their health and happiness.

There are so many schools of thought on nutrition and care in general. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer. It really varies. For instance, Dutch has well over 100 gouldians and zebras who go through a single egg per day; my flock of 20-something birds (all but 5 are gouldians and zebras) goes through the same amount (and they'd eat more egg if I let them! LOL) So it just varies. Tastes vary. Nutritional needs vary. And available resources vary.

As for the benefits of sleeping as hatchlings, I've always viewed the nestling phase primarily as a growth phase. They don't move in a manner designed to make new neural connections or strengthen muscles. All movement is designed to acquire food. When they're not begging, they're sleeping. So for these guys, I believe that more sleep is better.
When they get a bit older, in the mid-to-late hatchling phase, they're more awake and aware. They're making movements (like wing flapping) designed to strengthen muscles and make new neural connections. So for these slightly older birds, they sleep less and spend more time learning and strengthening muscles and so forth.
It's really quite similar to human babies. Newborn human babies literally just eat and sleep (and poop.) They don't spend much time developing motor skills and forming new neural connections. A sleeping, well-fed newborn is considered the ideal. A baby who was frequently fussing and seeking food would be considered unwell.
Later, once they reach a few months of age, they spend less time sleeping and more time moving, learning, etc. So constantly sleeping would be considered less desirable at this point.

[steve]

On a lighter note, since I have had all the cages/aviaries in my garden I have attracted a whole range of wild birds that before I never saw. I have seen some of them trying to actually get in my cages as if jealous of what my birds have lol.

Steve

[cindy]

Maybe this will help in some of the comparisons, it is a nutritional analysis topic I did for my group with links and info that you can go to and reference

Nutritional Analysis of some foods we feed our birds

** Nutritional Analysis of a cup of hard boiled egg..... there is an option to change the quantity of egg served to see the food value it contains.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dai ... ucts/117/2

Egg is certainly a power food....in one cup (amount can be changed o the actual website) of chopped egg the vitamins & minerals are:

Vitamins

Amounts Per Selected Serving - %DV

Vitamin A 797 IU 16%
Vitamin C 0.0 mg 0%
Vitamin D
Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol) 1.4 mg 7%
Vitamin K 0.4 mcg 1%
Thiamin 0.1 mg 6%
Riboflavin 0.7 mg 41%
Niacin 0.1 mg 0%
Vitamin B6 0.2 mg 8%
Folate 59.8 mcg 15%
Vitamin B12 1.5 mcg 25%
Pantothenic Acid 1.9 mg 19%
Choline 306 mg
Betaine 0.8 mg

Minerals

Calcium 68.0mg 7%
Iron 1.6mg 9%
Magnesium 13.6mg 3%
Phosphorus 234mg 23%
Potassium 171mg 5%
Sodium 169mg 7%
Zinc 1.4mg 10%
Copper 0.0mg 1%
Manganese 0.0mg 2%
Selenium 41.9mcg 60%
Fluoride 6.5mcg

Read More http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dai ... z3NO4nZwoi

Read More http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dai ... z3NO1aCXVR


** Nutritional Analysis of a cup of raw kale

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2461/2

** Nutritional Analysis of a cup of raw carrots

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2383/2

** Nutritional Analysis of a cup of boiled no salt corn

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2416/2

** Nutritional Analysis of a raw yellow corn

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2416/2

** Nutritional Analysis of raw broccoli tops

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2816/2

** Nutritional Analysis of Romaine

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2475/2 (disappointing)

** Nutritional Analysis of parsley (high in C, K & Folate)

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2513/2

** Nutritional Analysis of peas cooked no salt

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2521/2 (many good vitamins and minerals and high in plant protein)

*** Nutritional Analysis of Mealworms - live

Fat 27.2%, Protein 49.6%, Carbohydrates 6.9 grams/100, Calories 135 calories/100 grams

http://www.exoticnutrition.com/limein.html

*** Nutritional analysis of store bought frozen bloodworms (few varieties)

Protein
4.7% min

Fat
0.3% min

Fiber
0.8% max

Moisture
97.0% max

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=16865

Guaranteed Analysis:

Min. Crude Protein….55%

Min. Crude Fat………..3%

Max. Crude Fiber…….5%
Max. Moisture………. 5%
http://www.omegasea.net/products/nutrit ... lood-worms

The nutritional value of bloodworms is considered to be very good. Chemical analysis shows that bloodworms contain about 9% dry matter and of this about 65% is crude protein, ten percent is crude fat and about 10 percent is ash. They contain 15. % Nitrogen free extract. They are also a good source of iron for fish since they contain hemoglobin in their blood. (article list on the site is excellent regarding bloodworms)

http://www.members.tripod.com/discus_un ... worms.html

[cindy]

Protein is vital to young (whether it be human, animal or bird) in early development for muscle and nerve growth.

Keep in mind that in the wild not only do birds take in insects, grasses and seed but some species actively hunt small reptiles and fish, rodents as a primary food/protein source.

Egg I feel is a pretty complex food and provides many other key vitamins and mineral and so much more as the website charts show.

Many of my birds, grass keets included will not take mealworms or dried insects so egg is the item of choice here.

[MiaCarter]

cindy - Thanks for that nutritional analysis info! That's super helpful. I tried to compile this info for myself a while back and it was a huge chore (and I didn't even get as much as you have here!)

[steve]

Cindy, you didn't get to be a bird brain for nothing, quite a comprehensive post.

Regards
Steve

[cindy]

I have tried to create a good size reference section for our fbk group...I have more to share!!!!

Took nutritional courses in college and have learned a lot about the importance of protein, vitamins and minerals and their role in the body's functions, nerve, muscle and even reproductive roles.

An small view of what some roles certain vitamins play in the human body... likely pertains to birds as well

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/vitamins ... cle_em.htm

[cindy]

TailFeathers... in order to accurately monitor the young and their true progress regarding both diets...are you weighing and documenting each chick daily to see true growth and how the two diets effect each clutch or is this more of a visual thing?

The neck stretching/longer necks and begging more concerns me...their real cycle of development is being compromised to a point, it is showing physically. Their developmental sleep pattern is interrupted. Internally there is no way to tell how exactly they are truly progressing developmentally.

You may want to alternate eggfood and insects feedings with those young especially since they are begging more...and is this taking a toll on the parents by having to feed more...I would watch the parents do not become thin in the process from wearing themselves out.