(HELP) Something is killing my birds

[isobea]

41Gryphon - I wish I could help you somehow but I know much less about diseases than all the other members who have responded here. I have a suggestion, though, about how you could minimize the stress level: goldfinches like to be as high up as possible. I have a 6 foot tall outdoor aviary and my goldfinches (when I kept them years ago) were always on the highest branches up under the roof. Even in the wild (in Europe) they are often in the tops of the trees. So my suggestion would be to place their cage as high as possible. Secondly, you said you put fresh branches into their cage every two days. I'm worried that this stresses them unnecessarily. Maybe just leave the same branches in for several weeks. Thirdly, you said you've been feeding them a finch mix. I've seen pet stores feed their goldfinches the same mix they feed they give their zebras, societies and gouldians. Those mixes are too starchy which can easily cause health problems. Goldfinches need a lot of oily seeds. You mentioned you ordered a new seed mix for them. Does it contain mostly oily seeds?
Alright, that's my two cents worth. I wish you all the luck in getting to the bottom of what's going on. I kept and raised European goldfinches for about 20 years and they are truly lovely birds.
Iso

[cindy]

Feel free to disagree Mia, but the diagnosis was made based on the symptoms described while the bird was living and the discoloration in the belly as seen in the picture. Truth is without a proper necropsy there is no was to say for certain why the birds are passing. The job at hand right now is to help preserve the remaining birds since 2 have passed away of the same symptoms.

I would definitely treat the entire flock with a round of ronex 12% as recommended by Terri. If any other birds appear to show any further signs of illness please let us know or contact an avian vet.

[debbie276]

So the remaining birds have the same symptom's or are we throwing every medication at them to be sure?
If I'm reading this thread right the 2 showing the symptoms are the 2 that died, bought at the same place. If the remaining ones are not showing any signs of illness why are we treating them as if they are?

[cindy]

Basically if the ones that died were carrying either a protozoa/parasite or had trichomonas then it might be diligent to do a round of Ronex 12% as a preventative/treatment if housed with the birds that passed. It is safe to use even at higher doses but not exceeding 30%. It can even be given to parent birds that have young in the nest.

This is what was recommended.

[Sally]

I don't comment much on health issues because I don't know very much about the subject. Do keep in mind that it is very difficult to diagnose illness simply from photos or even from descriptions of symptoms, since how each person describes may differ quite a bit from another's descriptions. The only way to be certain is to have a necropsy done by a vet, and it is far too late for that, and/or to have droppings tested by a lab. Even when consulting a vet or having lab work done, you may get inconclusive results, so even the experts often don't have a clue as to what went wrong with the bird.

In future, for any losses, the bird should be placed in a Ziploc bag in the refrigerator until it can be taken to the vet for necropsy. The body should never be placed in the freezer, and if the body is not refrigerated fairly quickly, then the vet cannot do a proper necropsy.

[MiaCarter]

Feel free to disagree Mia, but the diagnosis was made based on the symptoms described while the bird was living and the discoloration in the belly as seen in the picture. Truth is without a proper necropsy there is no was to say for certain why the birds are passing. The job at hand right now is to help preserve the remaining birds since 2 have passed away of the same symptoms.

I would definitely treat the entire flock with a round of ronex 12% as recommended by Terri. If any other birds appear to show any further signs of illness please let us know or contact an avian vet.

@cindy -- I apologize; I think I wasn't clear on what I was disagreeing on! I was disagreeing on the statement that a bird cannot get super thin due to stress alone. They can; I've observed this occur.

But I agree that it's likely that stress wasn't the only contributor here.

And to be honest, the beautiful bird in those photos doesn't look like a wild caught bird who's chronically and severely stressed. Those birds are either constantly flitting around in a frenzy or puffed up and looking unwell, usually in a cozy, hidden corner. It would be extremely difficult if not impossible to get the great photos of that sort of bird. They would either look obviously sick/fluffed or they would be a blur due to the frenzied fluttering about. The bird in those photos doesn't show any outward signs of being sick and seems she was fairly still and out in the open - though that's an assumption. 41Gryphon would know for sure. Are those assumptions correct?

I'm totally in agreement with you that trichomonas and/or coccidia is a real possibility and I would definitely administer Ronex to the flock. Totally agreed there as well. (In fact, I would treat with Ronex routinely for birds that spend time outdoors - at least 2x per year. And I would also treat all newcomers too, especially if they're wild caughts. Protozoa, parasites and other creepy crawlies are the norm for wild animals, not the exception.)

I'm sorry for the confusion! I should have been more clear on what I was disagreeing with!

[cindy]

The protocol for quarantine outlined on the site below is excellent... I would first check the other birds for physical signs of illness... droppings, thin body... the lower keel or body may feel thin due to being in a large flight but check the upper chest, if that is thin as well there may be some issues stirring.... a full upper chest is good, even if ill it still means you may be able to help the bird. A overall thinness it can be harder to fix the issue.

Any doubts about dropping place a white paper or paper towels under the birds... photograph a clear close up of the droppings and post them here... I can pass them on for you. There are some things that you can tell from droppings that can be an easy fix.

http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/quaranti ... ocols.html

[debbie276]

Another really good quarantine protocol is on ladygouldian.com
https://ladygouldian.com/content/why-qu ... -new-birds

[cindy]

the bird need to be treated with either Trimethoprim sulfa or enrofloxin.... you can get both from glamorousgouldian.com, Terri ships fast and she has been the one helping reviewing the pictures.

another great protocol for quarantine or when you get new birds...to be done prior to any breeding.... http://www.gouldiansgalore.com/quaranti ... ocols.html it explains why it needs to be done.

Terri sells all the meds and preventatives... when you contact her let her know I helped you, also she sells the dried egg food, order some and keep a supply in the cage for the parent so have so they can feed the young. Terri's site is glamorousgouldians.com I might also suggest you get probiotics for after the antibiotics are given.

[cindy]

also look into getting a few seed hoppers so they do not run out of seed as often, use you bowl of seed along with the hopper until they learn to eat out of the hopper... when the birds have fledgling offer a bowl or dish of seed with dried egg food so the babies learn to eat and wean on their own...they will follow the parents lead and go to the hoppers as well to eat.

[MiaCarter]

A caution on seed hoppers....

Cindy alluded to this, but it's worth mentioning again: some birds need to "learn" how to use the seed hopper. They need to toss the seed hulls out of the hopper as they eat; otherwise, you end up with a layer of hulls half an inch deep or more. And once it reaches that depth, they can't get the good seed below.

This can happen in any bowl, cup or hopper of course. But in the case of most hoppers, the surface area of exposed seed is a bit less than an average sized seed cup, so they don't need to eat as much to get a decent depth of seed hulls. In other words, the problem tends to develop faster.

So just monitor for seed hull depth. I have some who did perfectly fine with hoppers straight away. I've had others who just couldn't figure it out.

[cindy]

it is a good practice to daily check hoppers, dishes... hookbills tend to push trough seeds, hulls to find what they want to eat, most finches do not. Javas will dig for certain seeds and empty a bowl or hopper.... so yes daily removing hulls so finches can get to the fresh seed underneath is important... get in the habit of checking when you are changing out the water and at night before bed so they have access to fresh uneaten seed in the a.m. especially when caring for young. With the seed hoppers there is a tiny drawer where the hulls drop, you can empty that are it get near full... check the tiny trough where the seed is delivered to the birds to eat... it can clog it full of hulls or seed gets wet. Some birds see seed hoppers as a place to roost in... so it may get soiled and need cleaning and changing of seed.

I always leave an extra dish down or use a larger seed dish along with a dish of dried egg food to always have available for parents with young. they also get fresh boiled egg food.