Lighting, supplements, UVB: the debate continues

mike · Post by **mike** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:21 pm

Okay so I did a little research and I've found some information I'd like to share/discuss.

[Fact] Birds require vitamin D3 to help in the absorption of calcium so we do our best to give them natural sunlight to help in vitamin D synthesis. For people lucky enough to live in areas where their birds can be housed outside, this isn't a problem. For the rest of us, we need to supply light to our birds.

[Fact] What we look for is "full spectrum" lighting. Unfortunately, full spectrum just means the colour temperature is at least 5500K. It doesn't mean there is any appreciable UVB produced by the bulb. There are bulb manufactured to produce UVB light and there are usually reptile lamps. The inexpensive full spectrum/sunshine bulbs found at hardware stores and department stores are not manufactured to produce UVB and actually put out almost none; 8 hours under a bulb is the equivalent of 1 minute in sunlight.

[Opinion] We supplement the birds' water/food with vitamin D3. This should be adequate for calcium absorption. In the reptile hobby, insects are dusted with calcium powder and usually contains vitamin D as a supplement. When UV lamps are used, many reptile keepers will use a dusting powder without vitamin D. However I have found that when I was breeding geckos, UV light stimulated breeding and successful hatchling growth.

[Opinion] It may be possible that we are giving our birds enough vitamin D in the form of supplements and the daylight bulbs we buy are just useful for moods (i.e.: make the birds happy and want to breed) but may be doing nothing for calcium absorption.

So the debate begins here. The items I've listed as "fact" are from articles I've read online and as with all "scientific"

literature, it's up for rebuttal. I do know that anyone who breeds large numbers of birds or reptiles indoors does not buy expensive UV lights every 6-12 months. The D3 they use comes in the form of supplementation and the lighting they use is track lighting. It makes economical sense. But if it's true that Daylight bulbs do not provide enough UVB then it shouldn't matter what the colour temperature of the bulb is (unless higher Kelvin is mood enhancing).

Any thoughts?

lovemyfinch · Post by **lovemyfinch** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:36 pm

If the vitamin that we are looking for in these lights is D3, wouldn't that mean that if in our seed mixtures this is listed as an additive, that plant lights (wich are way more inexpensive) would be fine for substituting sunlight? Being is how this is what they were designed for.

And much more inexpensive. Compare prices here $24.00 for the full spectrum with UVB. $10.00 for the plant light that replaces sunlight.

Good questions Mike, I'll be looking for the outcomes.

mike · Post by **mike** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:07 pm

lovemyfinch wrote:If the vitamin that we are looking for in these lights is D3, wouldn't that mean that if in our seed mixtures this is listed as an additive, that plant lights (wich are way more inexpensive) would be fine for substituting sunlight? Being is how this is what they were designed for.

And much more inexpensive. Compare prices here $24.00 for the full spectrum with UVB. $10.00 for the plant light that replaces sunlight.

Good questions Mike, I'll be looking for the outcomes.

These are the questions I have, as well. I read a lot about full spectrum lighting in past posts but if full spectrum lighting is nothing more than a nicer colour, something like egg production shouldn't be affected by using warm light, cool light or no light at all.

Full spectrum with UVB is $20 at Petsmart here. I have one over one of the cages. I have a smaller R-zilla light over another and sunlight on the largest cage. The societies only have an incandescent lamps over them but that's just for warmth. The 15W and 26W daylights are about $3.75 each - strangely, the 13W ones are $1 more.

Anyway, even though daylight bulbs aren't to hard to find, it seems it should be satisfactory to use the least expensive bulbs at any colour temperature to achieve the same results. But I'm sure daylight bulbs show the best colours; to us, not necessarily the birds.

BillD · Post by **BillD** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:33 am

Thanks for posting this Mike.

I am using the Sylvania F40 DSGN50 Full spectrum Sunstick 5000k and guilty in believing they would be enough. I haven't found any UVB rating on the box.

I would be interested in what you find out.

Finch Fry · Post by **Finch Fry** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:31 pm

good topic. I just bought a pile of n:vue high efficiency daylight bulbs from home depot and put them in some clip lamps. I was confident they were sufficient for their UV source.... now I am forced to question this.

I supplement their water with a multi vitamin so that should suffice. I hope they just enjoy the light.

mike · Post by **mike** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:17 am

Finch Fry wrote:good topic. I just bought a pile of n:vue high efficiency daylight bulbs from home depot and put them in some clip lamps. I was confident they were sufficient for their UV source.... now I am forced to question this.

Progagation of inaccurate information plagues the internet. One person proposes one thing and all of a sudden it's picked up by the masses and becomes "fact". I wasn't sure about the truth behind "UVB in Home Depot" bulbs because if this was true, the reptile community would have picked up on it a long time ago. There may still be truth in it but I haven't read any studies where general purpose bulbs were tested with a UV reader, just claims that the tests have been done and failed.

Post by **Sally** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:39 am

As you said, Mike, there is so much inaccurate information on the internet, so it is hard to know what to believe sometimes. I started out using Ott lights, but I put one 4' Ott light and one Home Depot (think they were Phillips) light in each 4' double shop light. I contacted the Ott company, but never did get a good answer on the UVB, just that the one I had (which was for growing plants) would be very good for caged birds. However, as my collection expanded, I couldn't keep using very expensive bulbs, so I went completely with the more generic 'daylight' bulbs.

I now feel that the 'daylight' bulbs are more for color appreciation (plus there is not enough light in my birdroom), and don't do that much to provide D3. I depend on diet supplements to provide the D3, and that way I know that they are getting it each day. I do feel that the lights are important for control of length of day, which can be a trigger for some of the species for breeding.

We do know that the lack of sunlight can lead to melanism in some species, such as Strawberries. My Strawberries are indoors year-round, and don't have the very expensive UVB lights on them, yet I haven't had an appreciable problem with melanism, so I assume that they are getting an adequate diet and supplementation.

BillD · Post by **BillD** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:39 pm

You mean everything I read on the internet is not true?

Thanks again for posting the information.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:40 pm

mike wrote:Progagation of inaccurate information plagues the internet. One person proposes one thing and all of a sudden it's picked up by the masses and becomes "fact". I wasn't sure about the truth behind "UVB in Home Depot" bulbs because if this was true, the reptile community would have picked up on it a long time ago. There may still be truth in it but I haven't read any studies where general purpose bulbs were tested with a UV reader, just claims that the tests have been done and failed.

I'm a little guilty of this. I think I had some info on my site for awhile about these bulbs being full spectrum (which I corrected a couple of months ago).

I use these, and for a long time I thought they were full spectrum (or considered full spectrum) because the specs on the package correspond to everything I saw on the specs for the VitaLite (VitaLife? Not sure of the actual name) bulbs, which I don't remember having a specific UVB rating.

There is so much conflicting information over this..
Some people feel like the birds have to be within 1" of the bulbs for an extended period of time to really get any benefit of the UVB, while others say still that the bulbs need to be replaced every 6-12 months (way before the life of the bulb is even remotely used up) to keep the benefit running.

An option is to use a natural supplement too that contains D3 - such as organic Cod Liver Oil.
A good friend of mine recommends Carlson's for use with parrots. I will be checking out my local Whole Foods to see if they carry this since I recently added a Parrotlet to my collection.

It is one of those things, though, that you have to use with diligence because if left for extended periods obviously it can go rancid. She expressed to me too that some birds will not eat it.
So then what?

Liquid Calcium Supplements like Morning Bird's Calcium Plus also contain D3 in sufficient quantities, but you have to be careful about how much free-choice calcium supps are available if simultaneously dosing with liquid calcium in the drinking water.
I find a good "balance" is to offer the Calcium Plus twice weekly (I do it two consecutive days) and then offer free choice Crushed Organic Egg Shell (or whatever calcium supplement you prefer), I use the Twin Beaks Aviary's Hatched! Egg Shell, the rest of the week.

Frankly - I am on the fence about the lighting debate.
I have not personally seen any real degenerative effects effects in my birds due to not providing full spectrum (with UVB) lighting.
Up until about 6-7 months ago, I used regular yellow bulbs, too!
I think the benefit of using the "Daylight" (I use the N:Vision Bulbs as well) bulbs is that the light is "white light", looks more natural, and if nothing else, is more pleasing to our eye.
I think the better color spectrum also probably makes the birds look better to on another, too.

Maybe also worth mentioning my bird room has two fairly large windows, which never have the blinds down.
On these particularly nice, warm, sunny spring days - I open the windows so that the sunshine comes in and they do get some, albeit minimal, direct sun exposure.

atarasi · Post by **atarasi** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:07 am

Mike,

This is a great question. You're absolutely right about how some things just become fact when everyone does it.

I found this on the internet:

5. Do Sunshine bulbs give off UV like the sun?

No. UVA and UVB output of fluorescent lamps, specifically Sunshine bulbs are minimal and comparable to other standard fluorescent lamps that you would find in places such as office buildings.

"6. What is the ultraviolet (UV) output of GE lamps?

The only full spectrum lamps GE manufactures are in the visible light range. They do not incorporate the ultraviolet (non-visible) output found in natural sunlight.

Full spectrum lamps in the visible range are designed to simulate the color range of sunlight. These include the sunshine, Chroma 50, and Chroma 75 fluorescent lamps. Visible light is found in the wavelength range of 400-700 nanometers and emits some UV, but the amounts are well below those found in daylight and sunlight, even when filtered through a window. These are not considered harmful. This is where normal, everyday use lamps (incandescent and fluorescent) fall.

For practical purposes, ultraviolet radiation is any radiant energy within the range of 100-380 nanometers. It is beyond the blue or violet region of the spectrum, and is invisible to the eye just like the silent ultrasound dog whistle is inaudible to the ear.

Incandescent lamps are not a source of ultraviolet radiation, and do not normally need UV filters. Incandescents do, however, generate heat (infrared radiation, or IR), which should be considered when illuminating plants or materials subject to drying damage.

The only lamps we make in this range are germicidal (UVC 100-280M) and blacklight / blacklight blue (315-400NM). We do not make any UVB lamps which are sometimes used for medical purposes or tanning beds."

And, from the LGF.com website:

"The basis for the observed effects of various wavelengths of light on living things is not yet understood. We do know from solid research that light affects the development of the body’s hormone-producing glands. We also know that under the stimulation of light, the pineal gland controls the synthesis and release of hormones and enzymes into the bloodstream. Perhaps most important, light received through the eye will stimulate the pituitary gland. Since the pituitary gland is the master balance gland of the glandular system and of the body, light in this indirect manner will influence all of the glands in the body. Through research has not yet pinpointed many of the physical affects of this glandular light influence, there can be no doubt that these effects are profound and far-reaching."

So maybe our birds aren't necessarily getting the absorption of D3 from the lights, but I do feel lighting does play an important part in reproduction. By outlining the length of day with these lights on a timer can also trick some of the species into breeding mode. When the lights don't signal the seasons, the birds don't know when they should be breeding. I find it interesting that by using a black light, it can influence and even out the sex of the offspring. i.e. more hens.

I have also heard that birds can become dependent on liquid calcuim if given too often. Too much can also be harmful. I offer powdered calcuim with D3 one or two days a week.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:36 pm

Sorry not sure why this posted twice :/

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:37 pm

atarasi wrote:By outlining the length of day with these lights on a timer can also trick some of the species into breeding mode. When the lights don't signal the seasons, the birds don't know when they should be breeding. I find it interesting that by using a black light, it can influence and even out the sex of the offspring. i.e. more hens.

Two things here, though:

Would the type of light offered (full spectrum or not) matter in bringing the birds into breeding condition? Or is it the length of daylight available that matters more?

And - some species are more dependent on diet than light when it comes to bringing them into breeding condition - particularly Gouldians.
The length of daylight from Winter to Summer in Australia does not change so drastically as it does for, say, Canaries in the northern Hemisphere (I think there is maybe less than 1.5-2 hours difference)
I think it is more the change in Temperature, Wet vs Dry Season, and the food available as a result that I think really triggers breeding in Goulds.[/quote]

atarasi · Post by **atarasi** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:20 pm

That's a good question Tiffany. Too good that I don't have an answer!
There are many of us who do absolutely everything we can to bring our finches into breeding mode. Live food, temperature, lighting, etc. It can at times seem that they don't cooperate despite our best efforts.

Then there are novice finch owners who never offer anything other than bird seed and fresh water and they are highly productive. All this with the cage in the middle of the living room with children poking their fingers in the cage, drafts, TV blaring, etc.

It doesn't seem fair!