Gram positve/gram negative from December 7th

[cindy]

I originally wrote this in Tiffany's Mousebird thread but wanted to move it so it would not take away from her adorable little Critter.

This may only pertain to parrots, I do not know enough about finches if it could pertain to them.

I got onto this subject after a few members were talking about cat saliva and birds.

Just a mention that birds have a positive gram bacteria in the gut, digestive tract, it can easily be changed to a negative gram bacteria. The article sites below explains it:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww37eiv.htm

http://www.parrottalk.com/gram-stain.htm

When I first purchased my Gray, Riley from a breeder that I knew of and was referred to by a fellow parrotlet breeder he seemed healthy. I went to the breeders home and she wanted to make sure I knew how to feed a Gray, the head movements are different. She syringe fed, I never do I always use a bent spoon. The one thing she did not do that is a must is she never used a candy themometer to see how hot the formula was. She would touch the syringe to her lips and test the temperature of formula with the end of her tongue.

I brought him home and he took to the spoon, he did great for about a week then got very ill with nasal discharge, vomiting shivering and refusal of food. I had an appointment set the following week to have blood test and have a baby type check up with our avian vet. They had me rush him in and not wait. She wanted to know everything about where he came from, how he was handled by the breeder and me. I told her about the odd practice of the breeder had of touching the formula to her tongue. The vet said never to do this because our bacteria can change the birds positive bacteria to a high count of negative very quickly making the bird ill.

His test came back and he was severely gram negative plus we were handed a devastating test result of PBFdisease. I went home armed with medications and instructions, we almost lost him several times, many emergency trips to the vet. Repeated blood work was done and his gram levels became positive again and he tested negative for the PDF after the second and third test. He beat the disease. He survived for 3 more years with us.

I later found out through a friend that heard what happened is the breeder had a problem with losing half her breeding stock and it was kept quiet. I tried to talk to the breeder about this and she would not talk to me. So I did what we had to and cared for Riley, we saw alot of the vet the first year.

Sorry for going on but it is important not to transfere your salvia to the birds, I don't know if this is true with finches but I know it is important with parrots to not allow them to eat a piece of food after you bite on it or lick your teeth or get in your mouth.

I know cats have high protein levels in ther saliva (some people are allergic to the protein and itch if they pet the cat after it licks it's fur or it licks their skin. I don't know of any effects a cat's saliva has on birds, I don't own cats.

I originally posted this on December 7th

[Animal Quackers]

Cindy -

This information is so important to share! I have seen people let their birds eat from their mouths, and others who think it is "so cute" that their birds will preen their cats or ride around on the backs of their dogs. None mean intentional harm to their birds, but the behaviors can be deadly. It's so important to make new bird guardians aware of this...and we were all new once!

[cindy]

Riley was so very young when this happened, sadly he is no longer with us. The effects of his illness was devastating. Baby Grays are like human babies (at least I think so). He had to be handfed out for two to three months past normal weaning time to keep his strength up and immune system on course.

I stopped using hand feeding formula when he was able to start eating on his own. With the consent of the vet I handfed him a mix of wheat germ, pumpkin puree, crushed pellets. He ate this warm mixture down and this kept him going until he was taking enough in to substain him on his own. I also cooked pumpkin bread for him to hold and eat. He grew strong and had a few scary relapses thoughout the year to follow, we discussed putting him down because it was so bad.

As he grew and molted his first molt he had stress bar patterns in his feathers. The illness took from him what should have been a normal begining in life. As he got better and endured weeks of medication, tests I would spend hours just holding him in a baby blanket as he slept. If I put him down he cried. It was crucial he slept so he could heal.

The bad part about the breeder taste testing the formula vs using a candy thermometer was to us something may be hot or warm but for a baby bird it could scald a crop, this coupled with the fact he was gram negative by the time I got him to the vet took an almost deadly toll on him.

I was thankful for the three short years with him.

[Animal Quackers]

Your story is devastating, Cindy. The worst part is that his life's course was set by the breeder, who SO should have known better, and could have so easily have been avoided! I wonder how many other Greys suffered due to her incompetence.

My husband and I lived a somewhat similar life with a wonderful, sweet soul named Cutty, the Quaker Parrot. I chronicled his short, painful life in my blog on www.quakerparrots.com if anyone wants to read it...but bring your tissue if you do!

[cindy]

Thanks for your support. I will read your story. Even when better he was not the same as a regular Gray. Because of the prolonged hand feeding to get him through he had horrible separation anxiety when it came to me. He had boughts of it, other times he was fine.

Every little off day he had was just scary for me.

[L in Ontario]

Cindy - I am so sorry for what you had to go through - it sounds devastating and I'm sure it was worse in person. I empathize with you and have perhaps a small story of my own to share as this could explain a lot about my Eclectus.

I bought my Eclectus girl about 3 years ago now and she is in the same condition now as when I picked her up at about 4 years of age - mostly plucked. She plucks herself and has chewed holes through her own wings. She has always been as gentle as can be and always plucked herself. I thought I might be able to get her to stop but not so far. Reading your post here reminded me of the day I picked her up. The man and woman who had her had nothing but praise for her. The woman at first held my Eclectus and was showing me how gentle this poor parrot was. The woman kissed the bird on the beak and (what should have made me walk out of the house) she then put her tongue IN the birds mouth for just a second as a "see how gentle she is" kind of demonstration.

Now I wonder if that kind of contact could have anything to do with this parrot's continual plucking and self destruction. She rarely plays with any of the toys I've given her. She is otherwise very healthy and eats like a horse! She is not the prettiest parrot (more areas plucked than areas with feathers) but she'll never leave my home.

[cindy]

Liz

Thank you for sharing your story about your sweet little girl. Riley went though a period of getting all all beautiful feathers back and he looked great. I have read articles and have them save in regards to certain illness the larger parrots have/had that leave lasting effects on their skin and they can't leave their feathers and skin alone. I will see if I can find them for you. It is devastating to watch birds do this.

Liz one thing is certain the bird is better off that you took her than if she was to stay with the couple. She may have been badly neglected, abused or her health issues ignored. She is safe with you, loved and well looked after.

I'll go through my files and see if I can locate all the information for you. I'll pm with the articles and files.

Riley's tall two story house cage was always by the triple sliding glass doors but we had a horrible cold snap come through so we moved him to a part of the room nearby so he would not get chilled. I found that these types of birds that have had early onsets of illness have a tendency to stress easily.

Riley started pulling and snapping off his feathers halfway up the shaft. Even though he was closer to us in the family room he continued doing this.

I feared the worse of course and took him in to see the vet. She told me that the Beak and Feather can come back even though he tested negative twice after a positive test. She told me to prepare myself. If it comes back he may not come out of it. My heart sank. We ran a blood panel, his test came back negative. We decided to watch him and move the cage in his usual spot. The behavior continued. Then all the sudden it stopped. Some of the feathers had severe stress marks in them others, never came back in right.

He was a loving bird, talked up a storm, he sounded like me and my husband and could tell the dogs in my voice 'wanna go out", the poor dogs were so confused. He would drop a piece of apple for them and say "want a cookie". I would ask him if he wanted a tickle and he bent his head down for me to tickle. If I bent my head towards him he would say "tickle" and tickle my hair. He'd ask for a hug and lean into me.

It is a shame the breeder was not careful with him, he also had a brother. I don't know what happened to him since he to was exposed to Beak and Feather. The woman used the same syringe for all the babies from differnet clutches (found this out after from a girl I met that worked for the breeder but left due to the breeder's practices). Most likey they all carried the Beak and Feather Disease and may have been gram negative also.

[Sally]

The woman kissed the bird on the beak and (what should have made me walk out of the house) she then put her tongue IN the birds mouth for just a second as a "see how gentle she is" kind of demonstration.

Oh, YUCK!! I am not a squeamish person, and I give my horses kisses on the muzzle, but I'll be d**ned if I'd stick my tongue in their mouths!

[cindy]

Sally,

My dogs like trying to sneak little bunny nuggets in the yard when I am not watching them...gross, they aren't licking me!!!

I recently did a little more research after writing about Riley and discovered finches to can also suffer the effects of gram negative bacteria.

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/lovesick.html

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww37eiv.htm

[cindy]

I knew a woman who hand raised baby zebra finches that allowed them to fly into her mouth and clean her teeth, pick around her gums. Momments before that they were pecking the floor of the cage. Totally grossed me out. Not only can you potentially make your birds sick but they can also pass things onto you.

Liz
A gram positive bird exposed enough times can become a gram negative bird (can cause yeast complications) which weakens the bird and opens him up to other diseases. This is what happened with Riley...he was gram negative, exposed to Beak and Feather and instead of his body fighting it off he succumbed to it. He showed no signs of it or disease when I got him, within a week of being home with me he was down. I had to get him into the vet ASAP and he could not wait for the appointment scheduled in two weeks for a check up. The vet said it(the disease) was in his system for awhile.