How do we know that rust is toxic to birds?

[cindy]

how to clean rust in an eco friendly way..... http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/5-home- ... ust-140463

"1. Salt + Lime: Sprinkle a little bit of salt on the rust, then squeeze the lime over the salt until it is soaking. Let the mixture sit for 2-3 hours and then remove the rust with the lime rind. This can also be done with a lemon. We like the salt and lime a little more because they double as margarita ingredients as well.

2. White Vinegar + Aluminum Foil: One smart reader dipped aluminum foil in white vinegar and scrubbed away the rust.

3. Baking Soda + Water: Put baking soda directly onto the rust, and then with a toothbrush apply water and scrub. This Re-Nest reader suggests going with the grain depending on what you are cleaning.

4. Vinegar Soak: This smart reader places smaller rusty items in an overnight vinegar soak, like rusty tools, and hasn't needed to scrub any of them!

5. Potato + Dish Soap:try cutting a potato in half, and then dipping the cut end in dish soap or baking soda. Then apply the soaked end to the rusted area and rub. To keep going, just cut the potato's top layer and re-apply the soap."

[Finnie]

Thanks, Cindy. I'll have to see if any of these work on the toys. It's mostly chains that get a rusty residue between the links as they dry after I wash them.

[30 Seconds to Bob]

Florida ground water is LOADED with rust. Anyone with a well and a sprinkler system can attest to that. Doesn't seem to bother the wild birds (or other animals) that have to drink it exclusively. Just my anecdotal observation. Bob

[cindy]

Wild birds have a bit more resistance than our caged birds. The concern I would think with ingestion is the actual particles of paint, rust remaining in the gut/stomach possibly causing an impaction or obstruction of some sort...not so much with the smaller birds like finches but the hookbills since they are chewers.

Finnie, let us know if any of the methods listed above help remove some of the rust.

[paul-inAZ]

While it makes perfect intuitive sense that rust is not good for our birds there is no proof. I will always prefer pure rust free water just because it makes more sense.

Conventional wisdom is often correct but when properly studied many of our dietary assumptions about supplements for eg. have been shown to be worthless. If small amounts are necessary larger amounts are better... right? Recently, multivitamin supplements, extra antioxidants, chondroitin and others shown to not improve human health and the list goes on. The billion dollar supplement industry may disagree but hard data is hard data.

In the absence of scientific documentation one way or the other it strikes me that any effects of rust -iron oxide- ingestion would be a simple experiment for some enterprising post-doc vet student. A cheap, prolific species like zebras could be fed rusty water and a control group none; followed for several generations looking at health, breeding and longevity etc. Q.E.D.

As I said before by profession I'm one of those evidence based people. I want to see the research data.

[cindy]

I think it would be more of a concern about large amounts of rust flakes being ingested opposed to rust water. The solid material to me would be more of a concern. Besides how many of us will actually let our birds drink cloudy rusty looking water to begin with.

[Finnie]

I think from what I've read so far, if there are large flakes of rust, then those are actually bits of iron that were loosened by rusting. So yeah, I would definitely say that anything metal like that that they could eat in pieces presents a problem. It sounds like any bits of metal or foreign objects are well documented to cause issues from blockages and leaching. (Leaching causes long term HMP that can't be cured until the metal is gone.)

I guess my original question was concerning rust residue on the surfaces of things, like if they licked it off. Once a long time ago I read that if a bird licked rust, it would die immediately. So I'm thinking that something along those lines may be an urban legend.

I don't question at all that if a bird is able to break off and ingest a piece of any (non food) item, that it would be bad for them.

On a related note, concerning hard water, my mother and sister used to work for a company selling (very expensive) water purification systems. That company had a vested interest in convincing people that hard water was bad for them, especially the brain. They had several articles that presented data in a way skewed to support their claims.

But what I have been able to glean from my reading so far, is that water gets hard from being in contact with rocks and metals, but that iron oxide (rust) is inert and biologically unavailable, even if it's in water. Therefore, non-toxic. And iron content in hard water is not the same as ingesting a piece of iron or overdosing on iron supplements (which are designed to deliver iron to the bloodstream).

So far my take away message is that a little bit of rust is not going to hurt them, but that a sizeable amount of anything could cause a blockage, or could leach metals into their system.

Cindy, I'll have to experiment with the different cleaning methods after Christmas. I'll just set aside my collection of questionable chains and bells until then.

[debbie276]

The World Health Organization says that "there does not appear to be any convincing evidence that water hardness causes adverse health effects in humans". In fact, the United States National Research Council has found that hard water can actually serve as a dietary supplement for calcium and magnesium.

[cindy]

Finnie, one of the things I thought about is that some of the cage metals may be inferior, especially made overseas...material can be unknown. So with that said if zinc or other metal was used in the cage construction and painted over I would be cautious of metal rust, the cage wire/bars may not be made of a reliable material. I think to our eye it (rust) is unappealing anyway, from a bird's standpoint...especially a hookbill could find the area appealing to play with, chip away and possibly ingest a good quantity of it.

I have some cages that someone gave me that have rust spots on them, some in areas that are in the from and large from water splashing. I am going to wire brush then down, take the panels apart, spray paint with a safe paint, air dry and assemble a flight using the best pieces from the 6 cages. The area of rust when wet leaches stain onto cloth or paper.

[paul-inAZ]

Cindy:
In addition to wire brushing or using coarse sandpaper to remove surface rust I'd suggest using one of the phosphoric acid based rust treatments. This converts the iron oxide to a black iron phosphate which is not prone to the rust recurring under the paint. It also creates a superior primer for paint adhesion. Just brush it on and let it sit for a while. Once dry it can be painted.
I've used a product called Ospho that is used for painting bridges. I bought it by the gallon for restoring cars and don't know if they sell it in small bottles. Locktite Extend works well and comes in small bottles. There must be other brands.
Naval Jelly and other similar rust 'removers' are nowhere near as good and a waste of money. You want to convert the oxide to something that won't continue rusting.

[cindy]

Got it covered Paul, my husband is very good with this kind of stuff...thanks for the info, we run into snags we will check out the products! We also have a Dremel hand tool with a small samder. It is not to bad mostly surface and most has come off already, some small tough spots...the cages are black, doing them in white!

[Finnie]

I am going to wire brush then down, take the panels apart, spray paint with a safe paint, air dry and assemble a flight using the best pieces from the 6 cages.

I'm doing the same thing with a pair of cages I bought cheap from a friend. Or rather, I thought they were cheap until I started trying to sand the rust off. I tell you, they could not be cheap enough to go through all this work!

I too have a dremel that I've been using with a small wire brush tip, because the sanding tips weren't working very well. Neither way is that great. It is SO tedious!

I think I will look into using the stuff Paul mentioned. But Paul, are you sure this stuff will be safe under the paint after it dries? It seems like you would have to rinse it off.

My can of primer said to remove the rust, then lightly sand, then wash and dry before painting. Well, that was a HUGE mistake, because washing wire after you've sanded it causes a TON more rust!! Had to re-sand it all over! Fortunately it was just surface rust the second time.

[paul-inAZ]

Phosphoric acid based rust treatments like Ospho or Locktite Extend convert rust to a hard black iron phosphate.

Iron phosphate is non-toxic.

One big advantage of these is that they are watery solutions that penetrate the nooks and crannies of the rusted surface.
The black iron phosphate forms a superb primer base for metal paints.

Just wipe or brush it on, let it sit a while and if you want you can later wipe off any excess. It does evaporate and dry on it's own. Rinsing it off will simply start the rust cycle again.

[Nerien]

The problem with hard water is NOT toxicity or health effects.
The problem is that the hardness, which is mostly dissolved calcium, comes out of solution (does not remain in the water), and deposits as rock hard crud (limescale) everywhere in the water system--pipes, pumps, water tanks, faucets, valves, sinks, boilers, circulators, dishwashers, washing machines--if the hard water passes through it, the calcium can build up on it. And ruin it, destroying its function, destroying its looks, blocking pipes, blocking waterflow through your furnace and water heater, ruining everything.

I live on a lump of limestone, half my town sits on limestone, (basically calcium carbonate) my well is drilled into limestone, my water is as hard as it can be (leave a glass of water out overnight, it has white crystals in it the next morning, boil a pot of water more than a few minutes, it has white crystals in it and a layer deposited on the sides of the pot). Hard water has cost us numerous faucets, showerheads, two dishwashers, water heater, well pump, pipes...and we do have a water softener, it's just not capable of entirely fixing the hardness here. Hard water isn't bad for your health, it's bad for your wallet.

Iron is often another element in hard water, as can be many other minerals. Iron is a problem because, along with the limescale buildup and stains, iron tints them rusty-red-brown. It tints your laundry rusty redbrown, on top of the crusty greyish build up you get from the calcium hardness that builds up in your laundry. Doesn't take much iron to show up. If you have so much iron that it's a health hazard, you either have a metabolic problem yourself, or your water would be too disgusting to drink.

To say that iron is toxic because if a bird eats chunks of it it will cause them problems, is ridiculous. If a bird eats chunks of plastic, they will have problems. If a bird eats chunks of wood, it will have problems. If a bird eats chunks of wax, it will have problems. If a bird eats chunks of paint chips or powder coating, it will have problems. If a bird eats chunks of rock, it will have problems. Are chunks of iron, plastic, wood, wax, toxic? NO. The problems are not from toxicity, the problems are from CHUNKS OF NON-FOOD being consumed. So rust can be a problem, since it may be easier for a bird to consume than non-rusted areas, but that does not make it toxic.

Iron is not toxic like lead or mercury or cadmium other true heavy metals. Read those articles carefully, they include iron/rust in the list, but then they never, never mention it again in any of the biological or metabolic or toxicity situations. The closest it comes is mentioning the toxicity of the paints or coatings used to cover or clean up rust. So if you clean up and repaint a rusted area with something that contains a toxic metal, it is not the rust that is toxic, it's the toxic coating mistakenly used. To blame the rust is like blaming the strept throat for your allergic reaction to the penicillin you took for it.

Protecting your birds from hazardous objects is always a great idea, like things they might chew on and eat chunks off of. But I have yet to see any accurate, supported, scientific data supporting a declaration of rust as toxic. Including it in a sentence or two, with no data, facts, case studies, does not make it so.

[paul-inAZ]

Nerien's point is well taken. There is a decided distinction between a swallowed object and a toxic material. The medical term for swallowed objects is "foreign body". Animals [and kids] sometimes eat foreign bodies and these can and occasionally do cause trouble. The material is not necessarily toxic.