I Think I've Figured Out What's Going On With My Babies....

[SocietyBird]

The breeder is from Ontario, Canada and I am suspicious that she would have had no idea. I'm still waiting to hear back and find out what she thinks / and is going to do.
She is a Private hobby breeder, but I do know other birds have been sold.
I have a few thoughts as to what I can do, but I also have the feeling that this particular breeder will show due diligence in letting the other people who have purchased birds from her know that there is a problem. We'll see... I suspect this is new for her in the last year or so as she added new birds from other sources herself. Big big mess...
I will for sure keep you all posted. Hopefully she can get to the 'root' cause ... where it all came from .. and then go from there.

[SocietyBird]

lovezebs

I believe that any finch could be infected. The only hope I have right now is in the fact that I haven't ever had them in the same flight.

Still trying to figure out what's best to do with my the goulds. The two pairs were singing / hopping and bowing to each other this morning - happily oblivious to what's going on. Two gouldian babies are strong and actively begging for food.

[Babs _Owner]

SocietyBird

My heart just breaks for you This is an aweful situation for you to be put in, just aweful. *shakes head*

Edited : I just noticed you listed where they came from.

[SocietyBird]

Babs
(((hugs)))

I've come across this article on avian diseases and it has a bit about circovirus (aka black spot disease) - not a lot of new information, but on a whole a really good resource article to have on hand when dealing with sick birds.

http://avianmedicine.net/content/upload ... mynahs.pdf

Still waiting to hear back from the breeder. I've sent an email out to an avian vet and hoping to hear back soon.

[lovezebs]

SocietyBird

I just feel so bad for you, having to deal with this......

As I see it, there are two choices here, and neither one of them sits well with me.

One choice, is to hang on to your birds, never sell or give them away, never breed them again, and never buy any others to add to your flock .

The second and much less appealing choice (and I really hesitate to even offer it as a choice), is to take your birds to the Vet, and have them euthanized....... which is something I would find impossible to do..... Not when they can still enjoy life (other than breeding).

I am however very concerned about this breeder, who may well continue to breed and sell her birds (knowingly or unknowingly).

[SocietyBird]

lovezebs

((thank you)) for your kind words. I'm beyond heartbroken over all this . . . just trying to do what is right at the moment. God knows I'm having a difficult time determining what that might be.

The breeder will not be able to ignore things. I believe she will also be devastated when the full realization of all this hits her. I'm still waiting to hear back - she'll have her work cut out for her determining where the infected birds originated from. I know she's been breeding for quite a while. I will make sure that she fully understands things and doesn't mistakenly think that this came from any of my birds. Given the severity of the situation, it's morally and critically important that all of this is handled properly and quickly.

I've been giving serious thought to having the birds euthanized. I just don't know if I will be able to do that. We've considered the option of finding homes for the two males, and the two females respectively with people who understand FULLY that the birds can NEVER EVER breed or be with other birds. Ever. Breeding and keeping birds brings me such joy . . but I am also considering keeping them and forgoing allowing any of my birds to breed or my getting any new additions until all these current birds have died. They don't deserve to die because of this . . . and they're such happy birds. I just don't know...

Not sure about my two babies either. They could be ok, and carriers - or end up succumbing to it any time, or later on in their young lives. Right now I am continuing to hand feed them. They're tough little squirts. Such an awful situation. I DID read today though that some adults can develop an immunity to it - so that at least is a little bit of good news. I guess...

Been a sad day for sure.

[lovezebs]

SocietyBird

I wish there was some way I could help.

I honestly believe, that you cannot pass these birds to anyone else. The minute you mentioned that there is some sort of an illness, no one would want them (or if they did, it wouldn't be for any good reasons, as in folks who keep snakes.... and I kid you not). Plus, I wouldn't trust people to stick to an agreement, which you really can't follow up on.

Oh honey..... I honestly don't know what to say, sigh~~~
I would be concerned, that your Socies (who are in the same room, may have been exposed to it too...)

Is there some sort of a test that can be done, to check who has it, and who doesn't? (Blood work, fecal...?) Although even if there is, I can't begin to imagine what the cost might be.

This just sucks BIG TIME !

[Babs _Owner]

SocietyBird

again my deepest thoughts with you and your birds. And also my thoughts with ya'll in Ontario because these carrier birds now can be lurking almost anywhere in your area (actually anywhere in the country eventually) attacking finches and canaries. How many breeding pairs did she have??

OMG, just aweful.....these birds and their offspring from this woman could end up anywhere for a LONG time.

Incurable. That word really struck me when I read about this after I got off work today in the articles you posted. This woman better answer your phone calls and shut down immediately and put down her birds, sanitize her cages and suck it up and refund your money.

She should also pay for you to have a biopsy on your dead babies if the tests come up positive.

I would be on the serious mission to make sure no other bird exits her home, even for free. Everyday a bird could be leaving her home to a house, a petshop, an overseas breeder. She needs to be stopped.

If you dont see euthanasia as an option, I would not give the birds away.......they could again be given away to someone else and infect another's flock. Theres never a guarentee another person might not be able to keep them anymore. If keeping them alive is your option, these would be the last birds you own for a long time. Which is really not too bad considering you love them very much.

A really big picture to complicate things, I know. More I read those articles, the more alarmed I am about the spread of her birds.

[SocietyBird]

lovezebs

I agree about finding them new homes....just one of those *thoughts* that presented itself as an 'out there' option. I'm really struggling with all this. (I NEVER thought of the snake thing though... my gosh...)

Really worried about my societies. Nothing I can do about them though . . I'm going to assume they're ok until something tells me differently. They had a clutch right in the midst of the goulds having theirs and no problems at all with distended abdomens, black spots or dying babies. Just the one baby that died on me, but he had no spot or anything .. all the rest have been fine.
(The cost of having them all tested is totally prohibitive . . . yikes!) My understanding is that it is passed along by contact. I'm clinging to that.

The breeder got back to me . . . her birds are now full into their breeding season but she's on HIGH alert now. She says she hasn't ever noticed it before (or even heard of it!) - but also that when her chicks were tossed or abandoned last season, they were very young and wouldn't necessarily have had the spot or problems. Despite losing many chicks last season - she also had a lot survive. So she's watching for it - and again, is on high alert with all her birds now. Will not bring in any new birds or sell any if there's even a remote hint of the problem. She's going to stay in close touch with me and let me know how things are. I can't tell her that her flock has it as it's something she will need to see for herself - but she looked through the links I sent and is now really really worried for her own birds. I suspect when she added new birds to her flock last year she could have ended up with a bird or two that carried the virus ... so it's going to be a bit of a challenge getting to the bottom of it all. She did mention getting birds from a couple of breeders that had closed down their operations....
I feel badly for her also. This isn't something anyone would want. Especially if you love your birds . . . and I believe she truly does.

That's all I can do. Now I have to figure out what is best for our little flock.

[SocietyBird]

Babs

Rest assured - her birds are shut in now and she's on high alert for any indications of the virus.
That's a good thing. I can't imagine anyone who loves the birds enough to put so much time into them would be so careless about things - but I guess there's all kinds out there. She's not one of those types thankfully. If in fact she does find the virus, she'll be in contact with everyone who has purchased from her. I'm thankful that she's now aware to be watching for it and that we can indeed stop it in it's tracks - full stop.

So sad for everyone.

[lovezebs]

SocietyBird

Forgive my poor memory, but if I recall right, you purchased two pairs from her (? )
Did both pairs hatch chicks that were affected?

[Babs _Owner]

SocietyBird

Im glad she got back to you. But when things like this happen I get an itch. Without going into my family history, let's just say I have had to fend for myself since I was 17 years old.... I am super street smart.

I've heard all the sad stories, the denials, the "it wasnt my fault" stories, all the bullcrap, and all the sales pitches and false assurances on the planet.

She gives me that itch. For every point you made to her, she had a counterpoint. Your birds ALONE should be enough for her to stop everything....why is she waiting for her young to have signs. Wasnt your birds enough evidence for her?

"Well I had a lot of losses this year" was a good selling in getting your sympathy when buying the birds.

Now she's changed to "But Ive sold LOTS of birds" when you brought up her point about having a lot of deaths.

See the way she may have turned the board around on you?

Then she blamed some "other buyer", which to me denotes a rehearsed response to being caught. "A lot of deaths" equals in my book a lady who knew something was wrong.

I'm not trying to set up paranoia. I'm just wondering why she would not immediately take back your birds with refunds as an immediate response?

What does "high alert" mean? Does it mean she's shutting down her diseased shop or does it mean she's just selling it to the unsuspecting and being more careful about not being caught? She did tell you she's right in the height of her breeding season.

The birds she sells that dont have a "hint of it" may very well be the invisible carriers. Seems shes not concerned about selling the carriers....just the ones with visible illness.

I've admitted here before I am cynical by natural (its annoying I know). I'm so sad for you it makes me angry.

When I think about this, I think what would Cindy, Debbie, Sally, Elana, Wildbird, Rox, etc.......and countless others do if this was their flock and they were selling infected birds accidently.

I don't think for a second they would keep selling/breeding and just be on "high alert". I cant speak for them, but Im pretty sure no feather would leave their property until the entire problem was fixed permanently.....by whatever means.

What medium through which did she advertise her birds? Can you give people a heads up so they can hopfully navigate and avoid this woman's sick bird shop?

[SocietyBird]

Babs lovezebs

Yeah - no more birds will be sold until she knows what's going on. I came to know about her through an acquaintance. Very private set up. I don't honestly think she knew - or even had a clue. I could be wrong but she seems pretty unnerved and upset by it all. I think right now she's in shock over it all . . . I have her word that no birds will be coming or going from her place. She has many birds - but more for her personal enjoyment. I'm sorry if I made her sound like a big breeder - she keeps most of her birds for herself. Please forgive. I called her a 'breeder' because that's what her hobby is - but not for sale per say - certainly not shipping or anything like that. She acquires more than she sells and keeps most of her babies.
I've just been so caught up in all this I guess I'm not thinking clearly...

The other buyer comment was me recalling what I'd been told when I purchased the birds - how she acquired 'new' birds from other breeders to add to her collection.

Both pairs did produce offspring that was affected.

[Babs _Owner]

SocietyBird

Both pairs were infected............oh no......... Thats very much not good. Oh dear. The fact that she has a lot of finches is even more alarming.

Here in the south a person USED to be as good as their word. Now many in the US have lost their minds and their "word" becomes "what can I get away with?"

My daddy would shake a man's hand and that was his promise. It's a rare find today. I hope her "word" means something.

Ill see ya in the morning. Your heart is heavy, I understand, but no matter what you do, keep your birds isolated and your seller shut down. Looking forward to hearing the news tomorrow. Try and get some sleep.

[Sally]

SocietyBird I feel so sorry for you to be faced with this, but you are handling it the best you can. It will be your decision, but either way could be a solution for you--either euthanize the flock (which would be so devastating), or simply keep your birds as pets, no breeding. As long as they don't appear to be ill, they may just be carriers, so you could enjoy them as pets. Are you able to consult an avian vet and have a few tests done? You wouldn't have to test all the birds.

None of us knows exactly what the original breeder is going through, and I don't think she should be condemned unless we would know the whole story. I was almost faced with something like this some years ago, when it was thought that I had polyoma virus in my flock. Fortunately, a friend told me to have my birds retested by a different lab, and it turned out to be a misdiagnosis. I was facing euthanizing my flock or stopping all breeding and just keeping pets. This is why I wish you could have any diagnosis confirmed by an avian vet. There are even labs that you might be able to contact, to see if you could send them a swab.

This is something any of us could face at any time. Unless you maintain a strict closed aviary, you always chance bringing something into your flock from outside. Several of our members have faced this in the past, and it is extremely difficult and devastating.

My heart goes out to you. When I thought I would have to destroy my flock, I couldn't stop crying, so I know something of what you are facing.