New Gouldians! Questions about 2 (health)

[Flight Feathers]

Flight Feathers

I have never used it, and never seen it anywhere.

Is it a medication, a supplement, a Vitamine? What is it supposed to do?

It is a probiotic, it prevents illness and gives your birds a healthier immune system, improves breeding results, cure sickness, infections and more etc. On google you can type up "collidal silver as a remedy for birds" and all the links come up

[Flight Feathers]

There is a lot it does. It is recommended by avian vets and is a must for all bird breeders.

[debbie276]

Never used it and would be very weary of doing so. It's been mentioned over the years as one of those miracle cures for everything and anything.

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/silver

http://www.m.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingr ... dal-silver

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... q-20058061

[debbie276]

It is a probiotic

Not a probiotic ...
Colloidal silver consists of tiny silver particles in a liquid.

[Icearstorm]

Flight Feathers

People do not fully understand the mechanics of silver's antimicrobial properties, but it seems that it damages both bacteria and animal cells, though it affects bacteria more. Since it is antimicrobial, silver may destroy both harmful and useful bacteria in the gut, possibly contributing to digestive issues.

Bacteria can also become semi-resistant to silver. You should not be feeding it every day, as this could have similar effects to dosing small amounts of antibiotics, which has led to an increasing number of antibiotic-resistant microbes, especially in the agricultural industry.

Debate: Colloidal Silver
Antibacterial Silver
Bactericidal Actions of a Silver Ion Solution on Escherichia coli, Studied by Energy-Filtering Transmission Electron Microscopy and Proteomic Analysis

[lovezebs]

debbie276 Flight Feathers

Thank you for the sites.

After reading all the information, I would not use this product.

From what I can see, Silver was used topically in the past to help destroy bacteria, but fell out of favour once antibiotics were discovered and proven to be much more effective.

Modern medical studies, have shown no real health benefits from ingesting Silver in any form, but have shown that it can cause some health issues with long term use.

I would not take the chance on offering this to my birds, not on a regular basis, and most definitly not on a daily basis.

[Fernando]

I would never experiment with new birds. If they are ill, take them to the vet. The more expert one is, the more we know that a picture does not help in most of the cases. Someone with expertise should have a look at the birds. And if there is an issue, the right antibiotics with the right dosage and time will help and cure.

Internet and forums like this one can help in the first step - to decide if there is urgent need to go to the vet.

In my opinion, over the desk top medicine is not a good choice.

[artgecko]

lovezebs

The dark area on the photo appears to be coloration. The skin there is solid and smooth..no blisters, bumps, abrasions, etc. I will have to look at him more closely today and let you know (the pic could be distorted some).

We trimmed their beaks yesterday and the RH appears normal now. The YH still has a ways to go... I think the bottom beak had actually started to veer in one direction and not line up, but now the bottom is not longer than the top and the RH's extra bit was trimmed off too. We used normal, sterilized small nail trimmers, but even so, it was difficult to see well on such a small bird. We did not get thee quck, so that's a good thing lol

I've messaged with a very experienced breeder who told me that the balding on the YH might have been due to it not being able to eat properly with the beak the way it was. It's nails were in awful shape too, so I'm thinking it never had any rough surfaces to use and whoever bred it just didn't pay attention.

The cage they are in has a swing and perch that are rough (the kind with sand in the perch by JW.) I am going to get some pumice stone to keep in there also to help.

I have ordered some feather fast (I think that's what it is called) liquid calcium and iodine supplements. In the meantime, they are getting daily access to dry eggfood with kelp powder lightly sprinkled and a pro-biotic, a finch seed mix, spray millet, cuttlebone, shell grit, charcoal, eggshell, etc. They have shown zero interest in fresh greens or prepared eggfood (with boiled egg), but I am going to try again today.

We are planning on another trimming session next weekend.. It will def. be needed for the nails but maybe for the OH's beak if he doesn't wear it down by then.

I guess the learning curve with these guys is a little steaper than some other species. I thought I knew what to look for, but had no idea that beak overgrowth was a common thing with gouldians... and also the balding due to diet. Now I will be better informed for my next foray to the birdshow.

I am planning on purchasing my next group of these guys directly from a good breeder, so hopefully I will have awesome pics to post (and no health issues) when the time comes.

Thank you guys for your help! I will post updated pics again either tonight or tomorrow to show what they look like after the first trim.

[debbie276]

but had no idea that beak overgrowth was a common thing with gouldians... and also the balding due to diet

Overgrown beaks are not a common thing with gouldians anymore then any other species.
Balding most times is caused by stress, though diet and genetics can also cause balding.

FYI, sandpaper perches are not that great for their feet. Be sure they have the option to use smooth perches as well.

Best of luck with you new birds

[artgecko]

debbie276 Thank you! I thought it might be common with them because I had watched the videos done by meadowlark farms on how to trim gouldian beaks. I had never heard of it with other soft-bills, but that could just be because I haven't kept finches / canaries very long.

This is the type of perch and swing they have (link below) they also have a natural branch perch and wooden dowel perch. I have ordered another type of rough perch that should be better for their feet (it is made with a natural branch) and I will replace their current one with it.

https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostor ... nd-perches

[debbie276]

That perch is fine. Just be sure to offer other smooth perches so they don't end up with sores on their feet. Natural branches with different thicknesses are wonderful to exercise their feet.

[Fraza]

but had no idea that beak overgrowth was a common thing with gouldians... and also the balding due to diet

Overgrown beaks are not a common thing with gouldians anymore then any other species.
Balding most times is caused by stress, though diet and genetics can also cause balding.

FYI, sandpaper perches are not that great for their feet. Be sure they have the option to use smooth perches as well.

Best of luck with you new birds

About perches I’ve been told by someone that plastic ones are not good for birds feet as they aren’t the natural shape and there feet can’t rap around them also mayb are hollow under neath so there feet just end up drives instead of rapped so instead shud use real branches off trees

[Flight Feathers]

debbie276 Flight Feathers

Thank you for the sites.

After reading all the information, I would not use this product.

From what I can see, Silver was used topically in the past to help destroy bacteria, but fell out of favour once antibiotics were discovered and proven to be much more effective.

Modern medical studies, have shown no real health benefits from ingesting Silver in any form, but have shown that it can cause some health issues with long term use.

I would not take the chance on offering this to my birds, not on a regular basis, and most definitly not on a daily basis.

Thank you for your advice. I respect your opinions and will leave the subject there.

[artgecko]

Small update... All 3 seem more active today, although the WB male is still puffed up more than the others. I sat and watched them for several minutes today and all were moving around, eating, etc. I also got to hear my first singing, surprisingly by the OH male. The normal RH male is also chirping a good bit.

The WB male seems to be the boldest, coming down to eat with me staring right at him less than a foot away from the cage (the others stayed near the top watching me until I was further away).

I have ordered some medications to keep on hand for bacterial, protozoan, and fungal infections just in case I need them.

@Fernando I wish it was that easy here. I have had a very difficult time even finding a vet that will see my pet boas here in my local area.. I found one guy that is only part time (works 2 days a week and is semi-retired) but no other vets in my town will even see exotics. That vet won't work on birds this small either.

I found one doctor about 1 hour away that says she commonly sees exotics, but when I took my boa to her for an abscess, she did the injection in the wrong place and did not do any cultures, etc. So I don't have a lot of faith in her knowledge... At least the local guy admits he is not an expert, but does research and consults with experts to get info... This lady claimed to know what she was doing and did everything wrong. :/

Almost all vets here only see cats and dogs. There are a few that will do large livestock also. The closest vet school is about 1 hour (near the other vet) and they only have one person on staff that sees exotics and only see them during the week at times when I am at work.

The closest real vet school with an exotics dept. is about 5 hours away from me.

I really wish more vets worked with exotics in college to learn about them and were willing to treat them as patients. The local vet told me that most vet schools don't even offer courses in exotics medicine here.

[cindy]

if feeding Roudybush and the birds are eating it well it is very complete... the new formulation contains Alfalfa and has many vitamin benefits.

Caution on charcoal... spoke to two avian vets regarding this... charcoal interferes with vitamin and mineral absorption, so it basically is undoing the good in the healthy foods you are feeding. It also interferes with oral treatments and preventatives. The birds do not need it, it is said to "sweeten the gut" of toxins but if the birds are domestically caged then they should not be exposed to toxins at all, if they are being exposed to toxins then you need to review your husbandry of the birds.

Also birds with GI issues should not be given a cup of charcoal to self medicate themselves, it is not a cure for protozoa, giardia, bacteria, yeast.... the birds if ill can over eat and gorge... one bird of a friend of mine was necropsied, I was called in by the vet to observe... she asked what was packed into the cop and had expanded the crop.... she said this is not ASM what was she feeding...told her my friend used charcoal in a dish.... the bird's crop was overly expanded, impacted and the rest of the body was bone skinny... the bird actually had internal parasites and was trying to self soothe itself, gorged on the charcoal and died. The avian vet said do not use charcoal at all.

The way my avian vet explained the charcoal in the wild was the burn season is very short in Australia, the birds source foods from different areas, they may come across toxins in the wild and may take in a small amount of charcoal to counter act that.... birds caged domestically are not sourcing foods from various locations, they are provided fresh seed, foods so they should not be exposed charcoal, not need charcoal.

This is a warning based on what I have seen time and time again in other peoples' birds and from the advice of two different avian vets.