Finch leg and feet problems - Mites???

[yaut]

thank you for your advice, monotwine.
I tried to put antibiotics into the water before (back in march) but they wouldn't drink it. they would take a sip into their beaks and spit it out as soon as they taste it. I gave up during the 2nd day when the water level in the drink bottle remained the same for too long... there was a queue to drink when I replaced it with the plain water - they obviously were very thirsty but wouldn't touch the antibiotics. Baytril I have is 2.5% oral sol.
I'd prefer to put it into the water because catching them and forcing stuff into their beaks is very stressful for them. but now they're eating little and not drinking much either, would it be enough to for the drug to be effective?
I give them different seed mixes from different suppliers. They love apples a lot, could it be apples? I stopped giving them apple a month ago. all greens they're getting are dandelions leaves and broccoli florets.

This bird isn't giving up yet and I won't give up until he gives up.

[monotwine]

Yaut maybe it is one of those unsolvable issues. I would make them as comfortable as you can and give them what you always did. You have their best interests at heart. Give them their favorite foods. Why not. I see no harm in fresh apple etc.
Feel so sorry for you and your birds. Its just awful when you have no diagnosis.

[Ginene]

yaut
Thinking of you and your sweet birds...

[yaut]

Thank you, Ginene.

I've managed to get the photo of the female goldfinch thigh, she's the youngest and the strongest of the bunch, I've given her antibiotics for 6 days so far, I think it might be enough... no change in her condition.

the scab? or damage to the skin covered in yellowish crust, don't know how to call it, it looks much worse in real life, it's more orange than yellow and covers whole front of her thigh... other thigh is a bit better.


the male goldfinch is still going and even managed to sing a few notes today. He's eating and drinking, not much I suppose as he's not gaining his weight back. Beak and sore beside it are healing but the legs remain the big issue. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.

[Ginene]

yaut
My heart is truly broken for you...I cant imagine the pain you must be feeling watching your birds go thru this every day. Please know that you and your sweet birds are on my mind and in my prayers.

[monotwine]

I looked up again all your symptoms in my finch books. Did you ever treat them for scaly mites? If you use something like scatt which you don't need to use in water and follow instructions and treat over longer period i.e. don't expect immediate results because by now its a bad infection- long term infections can be fatal unfortunately.
Also read in Russell Kingston book he treated the legs / lesions with petroleum jelly by massaging it in trying to avoid their feathers. The jelly helps smother the mites and soften scabs to make birds more comfortable. Importantly though I don't think in your case the jelly alone will solve it. You will have to treat with miticide. I would also do a full environment mite control to reduce chances of reinfection.

Best wishes.

[yaut]

wow, you've got whole library of finch books! impressive
During two visits to the vet, she said it wasn't external parasites issue, i.e. not mites and she sounded 100% sure. I treated them for mites at the end of may. I didn't notice any improvement afterwards.

I promised more pictures but only managed one before my camera went dead. They love the ears of wild grasses:

[monotwine]

They are such lovely birds. Pity it cannot be a simple mite infection to fix. What did you treat them with and for how long? Just out of curiosity. Here we have the usual stuff but best is Scatt or Moxidectin.
Not quite a library, but a few good ones by good authors.

[yaut]

First time they were treated for mites in the beginning of March when the canary showed the first symptoms of disease that initially indicated mites - scaly legs (the problems started 3-4 weeks later after getting the 3rd bird - the female goldfinch). finches were fine then. canary got treated twice and finches once with Ivermictin spot on. I wasn't very successful when applying it, I got some on the male goldfinch neck and he reacted like I poured acid over him. He was in distress and kept his head tilted to the ceiling - stargazing stance. I was stressed out too and didn't follow up the treatment two weeks later as I was supposed to. The canary had two treatments at this point - as prescribed - one by the vet, and one by me.
They weren't getting better after that but instead slowly getting worse. all them had their legs turned red by the end of april. I think it was 21st of may when I treated them with Ivermictin again - the first vet I'd taken them to suggested this. This time I got some help and applied it correctly (90% sure here). No improvement. Week later I rang the breeder I got the 3rd bird from. I only opened my mouth to say "my birds are sick" he said straight away "ring your vet and get him to order Baycox" (treatment for coccidial infections).
I got baycox week later (first week in June) and put them on it as prescribed. After three weeks of treatment - no improvement. Back to the vet - this time we got antibiotics - still no luck.
Here we are - no diagnosis, no cure.
I have some Ivermictin left from the last time, I'm tempted to try again. But first I'd like to give the 3rd bird a break after antibiotics. They're so pumped with drugs and supplements at his stage - is there birds rehab anywhere that I could send them to The interesting thing is that canary's legs aren't getting scaly again after the first batch of scales has fallen off - it took very long time for those to fall off, some of them I removed myself - last few yesterday, because she kept picking around the scaly part of the leg and kept opening the blood vessel - she was causing herself bleed every 2-3 days. I hope she's gonna stop picking now. I used to put baby oil on their feet the soften the scales, now I use the cream I've got from my vet.

[monotwine]

Really by the sounds of it (especially that it only started after you introduced a new bird) you probably got mites. The breeder told you Baycox, because yes I agree, it is one of the first things to usually manifest when birds are stressed. However something like the mites could have been a low grade infection his bird was used to, but yours not.
I think give them a few days rest from meds like you say (also give you some time to order in if you need), then try a different miticide. Scatt is easy to apply and very effective. I am not a total fan of Ivermectin, as I have had instances when the birds react to it and get toxic shock.
I have never had this with either the Scatt or the Moxidectin (both have Moxidectin as an active ingredient).
Scatt 1 drop per bird (or 1 drop per 30g) Apply to bare skin under the wing, and repeat after 3 weeks. Controls air sac mites and external parasites.

As you already established your birds don't take meds in their water, try Scatt. It is readily available. I'm not sure where you are from, but you can order it in if you must. Repeat the treatment every 3weeks - maybe with an additional follow up.
Here is a link to a suggestion of doing the treatment 3 times 2weeks apart. http://www.uq.edu.au/vetschool/external-parasites

You could do this Scatt treatment every 3 months to keep it under control and rid yourself of it re-occuring.

Maybe the problem lies in that you did not follow through with the miticide initially, and then maybe by the time you did the second treatment it was quite a bad infection. If I were you I would try again with Scatt and apply the cream the vet gave to ease the scabs off. The problem with mites is they usually have such a quick life cycle that they breed faster than the medication. Repeat the treatment up to three times if you have to.

My friend had a canary that was critically mite infested, just one that was prone to getting it in the entire aviary. They treated that bird for months with IVermectin. After they treated the whole flock for mites with moxidectin and cleaned the cage etc. The bird never got it again. It did take multiple courses of Scatt to clear up the Canary's state. But it did eventually work and the bird was fine.

Obviously throughout if you can continue to supply them with a well rounded, vit and electolyte added diet they should get all they need to fight off the pests and meds.

Here is a general overview of the external parasites on birds from Merck Vet manuals.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry ... mit&alt=sh

I really feel for you in your situation. Really hope you can save your birds.
Best luck.

[Sally]

Monotwine has given some excellent advice. I also prefer Scatt for individual birds. I have too many birds to treat individually, so then I would use S76 (ivermectin) in the water. I like Scatt because you apply it directly to each bird, so you know that they get the full dose, and you don't have to worry about any birds not getting medicated because they didn't drink all day. And any time you don't do the full course of treatment, it affects how well it works.

[yaut]

thank you, monotwine. I've ordered Scatt from amazon.co.uk. The seller wouldn't ship to Ireland so I had to get it posted to a friend in uk, and he's gonna forward it onto me (I hope the customs won't seize it, it's a small bottle anyways).

I took some pictures today to illustrate the horror stories in here...
First the canary. She's not that colour - it's dried on blood on her side. I noticed her bleeding from her leg a couple weeks ago, caught her and tried to stop the blood. I held her upside down and blood soaked into her side feathers. She bled multiple times from that leg - I hope no more.


Her problematic leg and the scab she keeps reopening:


The male goldfinch.
The sore under/beside his beak is almost gone. no he wouldn't let the q-tip go. what I really don't like here are those veins so clearly visible in his beak, it's red inside his mouth too


The growth under the wing is smaller now but still infected. I squeezed some puss out of it today. applied some cream with antibiotic after.


The biggest problem is his legs and feet. The outside toe of right leg is most likely dislocated and is curled under the other two:


I've tried to tape the bad toe the the middle one but he shreds the plaster into bits. He goes absolutely mad at it until exhausted, stops, rests and gets back to his "removal job". This one I put on yesterday evening. I have a plan to tape those toes in the evening before they're going to sleep, throw the blanket over the cage that is dark and he cannot see it and then remove the plaster in the morning (picture taken 3pm next day). I need to find some more robust material but I can't think of any


Closer look:




Today I made a platform for them and spiked it with their favorite treats. They don't get it yet. It would be nice if the male goldfinch figured it out - that it's easier to sit on the flat surface. I don't have an option of hospital cage. They don't like the heat lamp too much either. Very stubborn birds.
I pushed him onto the platform but he only stayed there for a moment only long enough to take this picture:


and the female goldfinch - the cause of all these problems - evil little *. But she came from the big aviary and she's most likely immune or more resistant to diseases. and she's two years younger.

[monotwine]

Great that you could get some Yaut. I really hope it works well for you.

Your birds are actually not looking as bad as I had imagined. Some of the administrations seem to be working. Perhaps your canary bled so much because of the lesions and scabs pulling off. With the cream / vaseline applied the crusty scabs should soften and not pull off causing extra damage. Much like any scab its better to remove when soft.

Shame your poor little hen is none the wiser that she is a carrier. She's not evil

Because the mites burrow into the skin and if I recall they feed off blood, they could cause anemia and therefore your birds pallid complexion, lighter beak colour and veins... but that is a guess your infection does not look bad enough for that.

The pus lesions should be treated with antibiotic. Not sure what cream the vet gave you, but other than that try the Baytril again. I got good advice before from breeders / keeper and medicate this way to try prevent birds dehydrating / taking in too much meds (which they do here on warm days). They don't need to drink it all - just a few sips.

Take all water away from the birds the evening before (say from 4 or 5pm). Give them the medicated (& sweetened) water first thing in the morning. Leave the medicated water in till say 11am and then replace it with fresh. Birds have to drink and will usually once they get over the initial change. Try it if you have nothing topical (like antibiotic cream) to put on the sores.
Unfortunately a secondary infection can do as much damage to the birds as the initial problem. They are probably weak and their immune system compromised already. Again, don't stop the Baytril treatment if you do start. Give it to them for the full course, even if you don't think they are drinking enough of it. By giving them fresh water every time after you know they are getting enough water.

Good luck.

[monotwine]

Forgot to add re the foot. IF the toe has permanently moved across it could have been an unrelated injury (twisted on cage and dislocated / broken). I find this happens easily. They live quite happily with their new foot structure and I've only once amputated a toe when the change became painful for the bird - causing more problems than the initial break. He was happy to be rid of his useless toe. I know that a really bad mite infection can cause misformed feet, but it looks a little more like a mechanical fault that has healed badly.

In the event that the toe can be splinted. I use toothpicks (cut to size / slightly longer) and mircropore tape. The tape is sticky but breathable and I have successfully fixed damaged toes this way. The toothpick needs to be placed from behind the nail and extend past the end of the top to support that individual toe.
IF the joint however has healed in the incorrect position, it is probably more painful for you bird to fix it now. If he is comfortable standing as is I'd leave it.

[yaut]

Great that you could get some Yaut. I really hope it works well for you.

it's a long wait till Scatt arrives. I'd like to treat them now but it's not gonna happen until the end of next week

Your birds are actually not looking as bad as I had imagined.

Those pictures aren't telling the real story. Birds are worse than that, believe me The scales on canary legs simply popped off when lifted from the side. I didn't understand why she didn't pick them off herself. There's only one scab on the leg and it's in the place with no scales. She was bleeding from it again two days ago

the problem with the dislocated toe is that the knuckle? joint is pulled and stress put on it when he's putting weight on that leg. that joint is enlarged and inflamed. during those 1.5half days in the bandage the swelling of the joint subsided but now it's bad again. he's not perching normally - he's kinda lying on the perch like in the picture on the previous page - his feet are just too sore to stand on
The antibiotics cream I have is Fuciderm - it has a dog drawn on the packaging...