Bloody Diarrhea in Gouldian-- Update 4/1 w/ Video

[nixity]

I don't mean to question or doubt Kristen in any way because I trust her judgment but I'm not certain why she would have you use Apple Cider Vinegar which is not effective for treating anything unless you administered it at a dosage which would be caustic to the bird's crop.

I guess perhaps to help keep yeast in check - but a) if the problem is yeast, then it's already past the point of ACV helping and b) Anti-protozoal meds do not cause yeast to propagate so there's no need to be proactive about fighting a yeast infection when treating for protozoa.

I actually think that Cocci is a much more reasonable assumption.. *ducks and hides*


All that being said - I have Worm Away (but I don't think you need it, so I really wouldn't want to sell it to you), but Ronex has been back ordered from MB for well over a year. I believe Misty should carry the Vetafarm equivalent which is Ronivet-S?

ACV you can get from any health food store or Vitamin Shoppe (look for Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar... it can't hurt to have it but I don't think you need it for this bird.. you'd be better off sticking to a good probiotic, it would be more beneficial on the whole).

[Domenic]

Here's what she said. "You can mix the Ronex with apple cider vinegar as both a probiotic and acidifier for the gut to keep yeast at bay."

I understand the reasoning behind thinking its Cocci, but it does not explain the head thrashing and choking movements. Rather than argue for Kristen, it may be more beneficial to just post her email to me.

Okay, I've viewed the vid, but would like to address the other issues first. Bloody droppings can be caused by many things, but it is "usually" something like a bowel obstruction or worms. BUT, it can also be a starvation thing. Have you seen this little guy eat? When I say eat, I mean actually cracking the seed so there are hulls in the cage (often times they'll pick the food up and look like they are eating, but are merely twirling the seed around in their beak). If you have some kind of soft egg food or Miracle Meal, I would give him a shallow dish of it in addition to his seed. He'll be more inclined to eat it than seed as he won't have to work as hard. I'd also like to see you get him some type of electrolyte, but he really needs some meds and they shouldn't be combined!

You say he's lost quite a bit of weight which in combination with the blood in the droppings leads me to believe there is some kind of parasite going on there. It could be worms or even some type of protozoa. The vid makes me think Trichomonas - the birds will often try to "cough up" stuff caught in their throats and/or swivel their necks in order to dislodge what they think is stuck there. Worms can also make the bird act like this...so we are in a tricky place.
What I would recommend is to keep him in the hospital cage with heat and get him on an antiprotozoal (Ronex or Ronivet 5-7 day treatment). You can mix the Ronex with apple cider vinegar as both a probiotic and acidifier for the gut to keep yeast at bay. I would then worm him (Worm Away or Worm Out gel), but my concern is that if he does have worms, the wormer will kill the worms and cause a possibly already obstructed bowel to get worse - possibly even killing the bird. Any blood in the droppings make for very tricky medicating! Improper antibiotic use can cause severe damage to the liver and kidneys (causing blood in the droppings), however, the antiprotozoal should not cause any additional damage. We want to rule out parasites first.

As for the odd behavior in the vid - I think I see two things there - the possible presence of protozoal or worm infection (the beak/neck thing), and a bit of stargazing which is normal for a bird who has been placed in a much smaller cage than it is used to. I often see birds who are used to large cages or flights stare at the hospital cage ceiling and almost hunker down as if they think it is going to attack them. The close confines of the cage is supposed to be soothing and cause less stress, but sometimes it actually makes their stress worse.
I will be here today and only have to run out to ship some orders, but otherwise will try to check back often. Do let me know if you have any other questions. I'll do what I can to answer them!

[nixity]

Well, just to be clear.. Cocci = Protozoa - it's just a different type of protozoa than Trich, and Ronivet is not effective at treating it.

I see her point about the head movement, just don't really follow the yeast aspect of it.. but I guess she means the stress of the current condition could result in a secondary yeast infection - totally plausible.

[MLaRue]

Domenic, so sorry you are going thru this with your Gouldian. I have been very lucky in that I've had little disease in my flock, so I am pretty inexperienced when it comes to diagnosing illness. Luckily, there are others on here who are so knowledgeable to help you. Hope your little boy gets better soon.

Sally I hate to say this but it always seems to be the Gouldians that get the problems for the most part I never have problems from any of my other species.

[MLaRue]

I'm going to sound like a "nag" for a moment but the two medicines I always go to for my Gouldians is TMS and Ronivet (ALWAYS) - it rarely is something else with new birds and my existing flock doesn't need it.

So, going back to what I FEEL IS A MUST with GOULDIANS is to treat them with Ronivet as soon as you get them home as part of a preventative or precautionary treatment ESPECIALLY if you don't have a microscope. Birds look perfect when buying them and then 24 hours later they are puffed or poops look horrible. This step prevents this every time for me.

Domenic - I have Ronivet and I also have Citric Acid which would work in place of the ACV. I trust the Citric Acid to keep yeast away - I use this with handfeeding my babies.

Send me your address and I will send you some Citric Acid and Ronivet and the TMS so that you have them all on hand. With the blood in his stool we may be too late but it certainly won't hurt to try - I don't have Medistatin and this is what you would need to treat yeast. I think Donna has it - I'm sure I can get her to send you some of that.

[nixity]

I thought you said the CA wasn't working for Hand Feeding? :/

[MLaRue]

Do you have any electrolytes to give him? Something like Thrive or Vitalize?

The only bad thing about those is that they are full of sugar - which in my opinion can create yeast.

Do you have any probiotics on hand?

[MLaRue]

I thought you said the CA wasn't working for Hand Feeding? :/

It works at keeping it away - IF I feed them from the start but if the parents have them first then no it doesn't work - seems to make things worse.

I know it works for Donna - she is using it with hers

[MLaRue]

BTW - Do you have a Wormer on hand?

[cindy]

Domenic Allbirdproducts.com

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newprodu ... tatin.html

They have a wide variety of meds including Medistatin and other bird products. Hang onto this site for futuer reference.

[MLaRue]

The other vendor that is close to him for future is www.ladygouldianfinch.com - they also have Medistatin and Ronivet but it is Laraine that is offering the discounts on meds which her website is www.ladygouldian.com

BUT - to get you what you need now for free - I will send you enough to treat the Gouldians - what I don't have I'm sure Donna has like the Medistatin.

[nixity]

He can also get unflavored pedialyte to use as an electrolyte source without the risk of adding all the unnecessary sugar..

I also have Medistatin I could send (some of my own.. no charge)..

I also have Med Pet 4-in-1 which is a combination of TMS and Ronivet.

[Sally]

I also have Medistatin, and Ronsivet-S, Thrive, Probiotics. Just let me know what I can help with.

[lovemyfinch]

Off topic..a bit...but after having no input for helping, I just want to mention that I just love the comradery on this site. Absolutely heartwarming

[CandoAviary]

Comradery
It is amazing how a sick finch will bring every one together