Hen Eggbound?

[DCbeachboy]

As some of you may recall, my Gouldian pair have been desperately wanting to mate for some time, but have yet to enter the nestbox I provided them a month ago. Yet I suspect they may have mated last week while I was away on vacation, as I'm seeing some rather peculiar -- and alarming -- behavior in my hen yesterday and today.

I returned late Tuesday night from my trip to find both birds seemingly very healthy, active and rather normal. Except the hen was uncharacteristically quiet, docile and passive. And she typically is most definitely NOT a quiet or passive bird by nature -- far from it! She had been calling loudly almost all day long for the previous couple of months, but since I've returned she hardly makes a peep at all.

Wednesday both birds spent most of the day frantically searching their cage for a nesting spot -- still ignoring the nestbox (of course). But on Thursday morning I noticed some odd behaviors in both birds that I'd never seen before. The male tried to mount the hen immediately after their usual courtship dance, and was on her for a second or two. I don't know if he succeeded, or if it was his first time....but it was the first time I'd seen it. For the rest of the day yesterday, and continuing today, the hen has been acting quite strangely -- beyond the sudden passivity she adopted while I was away:

• 1) She sits much of the day in a quiet upper corner of the cage, often shutting her eyes partially for a moment or two, as if she's struggling to keep them open. She's not usually one to nap during the day, unless it's near roosting time.
  
  2) She occasionally puffs-out her feathers for a few seconds as if she's preparing to poop, but usually nothing comes out. (But she sometimes releases droppings that appear fairly normal in size and color, so I don't believe she's constipated.) A few times I've noticed her with a wide stance during these puff-outs.
  
  3) She occasionally will also suddenly lean forward with her beak open and "freeze" in that position for anywhere from a minute or two to as long as 15-20 minutes. I've noticed this several times yesterday, and again today. During these episodes she has a very menacing look. I don't know if she's in pain or exactly what is happening, but she seems in distress of some sort when this happens.

I'm very aware of the urgent need for quick action if eggbinding occurs, and I'm desperately hoping that's not the case here. She hasn't been on the cage floor yet, unable to fly. In fact she flies around quite well, without any problem at all, when she wants to. She just appears not to want to fly very much at this point...she's definitely less active and far quieter than usual.

She has been receiving calcium drops in her water for the past couple of weeks, and she also has 24/7 access to cuttlebone, eggshell and oyster shell. I've seen her regularly nibbling on the eggshell/oyster shell grit mixture, but not on the cuttlebone in several weeks. But I really believe she's receiving enough calcium.

I'm not sure the same is true of protein. Her appetite is perfectly normal -- she's eating as much as she ever does. But she hasn't had access to the usual eggfood for the past couple of weeks while I was away. She has been nibbling heartily on the Miracle Meal I added yesterday, and tomorrow I plan to resume their eggfood.

Yesterday I added some Morning Bird "Thrive" to their seed, along with some of Rob Marshall's "ER Formula" to help boost her immune system. She does seem to have perked-up a bit today, compared with yesterday. But she's still not behaving normally at all. Today I returned their heated perch to the cage, which I had removed in the spring....but she hasn't been on it yet. They both know to use this heated perch while preening after their baths, so I'm hoping if she needs the heat, she'll find her way to it.

Do any of these symptoms seem to indicate eggbinding, or possibly an illness? Or is she maybe just traumatized from his attempt(s) to mount her? Maybe she developed an infection from only having their water changed every other day while I was away (despite the addition of apple-cider vinegar to their water)? Do either a hospital cage or vet visit seem necessary at this point, or would that stress her out even further?

[finchmix22]

O.K. a few questions and some thoughts. How old is the hen? Is this her first time to mate with any male? Does her droppings consist of mostly urates? She may be just getting ready to lay an egg or could be eggbound, but usually that is without a source of calcium, unless she is too young to mate and cannot pass the egg. I had a GS hen do something similar, but not for 20 minutes. She would make that stance off and of through out a day and the next day there was often an egg or a huge dropping. I would then add extra Calcium Plus to her water, like four drops for a 4 oz container, to really boost her calcium. Then, she would eventually lay the egg the second day. If she is constantly in that stance, I'd take her to an avian vet, because sometimes they can go downhill so quickly. FYI-when I have to go out of town, I hire one of the avian vet' assistants to come to my house and take care of my finches, and my dogs, and my cats! LOL. She is the best pet sitter and I can relax because I know if someone is sick or injured, she can just take them to work with her and vet can check and treat. She is also great at catching escaping finches. LOL. I pray your hen is not seriously ill and recovers quickly.

[MLaRue]

This hen is not in breeding condition - her beak would be very very black if she was ready to breed...

If she is opening her beak and keeping it open? this is not normal at all?

I think the diet you have provided overall has been excellent so I can't see that this hen would be having any egg bound issues?

I don't have an answer but I would say no that she isn't eggbound and something else is possibly wrong with her, but seeing that her beak is not black the stress of being allowed to breed now could be bringing something else to the forefront.

[cindy]

Could the male tried to mate with her and chased her and she raninto a perch or the cage wall...you need to seek the advice of a vet. I am not a gouldian expert as far as the age the are to breed, she may have a head injury or internal injury. Open beak, puffed, odd stance does not always mean eggbinding, keep the heat on her.

[DCbeachboy]

The hen is 14 months old, and no....she has never mated or tried to lay eggs before. Her droppings appear to be rather normal....I was thinking maybe they looked a bit more green or brown at first when I returned home, but after watching more closely I think they are normal, as best I can tell.

I realize her beak isn't black, but both she and the male have been clearly wanting to mate for some time, and it was beginning to cause some rather severe behavioral problems. I was hoping that her beak would blacken after I finally provided a nestbox and the male began building the nest -- but a month later he hasn't even begun to do so. So she may be stressed about lack of a nest.

Both birds have been very healthy up to this point, and neither has been exposed to any other birds in the 10 months I've had them. I'm hoping that she didn't contract something during my absence while under the care of a close friend who came to my home every day or two to provide fresh water and feed. But if she were truly sick, wouldn't her appetite be poor? She seems to have a perfectly normal appetite, and is eating as much as ever.

If her condition worsens overnight, I'll either transfer her to a heated "hospital cage" or take her to an avian vet in the morning...depending on what I'm seeing. I just hate to put her through the stress of catching her, cooping her up in a small confined area, and possibly traveling with her, unless the situation is truly critical -- a matter of life or death. Am I correct in assuming that it's not critical as long as she is still eating normally, and not stuck on the cage bottom, unable to fly?

[bugaboo5]

Could she be reacting to overheating? What temperature are you keeping your house? The East Coast is suffering from extreme heat at the moment; unusually high temperatures for many eastern states.

If her poop is normal and she is eating fine, I don't think you should worry too much. You said in previous posts that your pair recently completed their molts?

[DCbeachboy]

Thanks for the input, all. The inside temperature hasn't changed, despite the heat wave outdoors. I've been keeping it at a constant of between 78-80 degrees F. for the past 2-3 months. And yes, her beak was dark earlier this year until they began molting, which they completed about a month ago.

Update: I raised the corner of their cage cover this morning around 5:15 a.m. to check on her to see if she was on the cage bottom, and when I did so both birds began fluttering around frantically as if in a night fright. She's definitely having no problem at all flying around.

I just now woke them up for the day, but so far she seems perfectly fine this morning -- just still much more sedate, quiet than usual, and she has puffed-up a couple of times already as if she's preparing to poop, but nothing came out. But she's already eating and preening, and seems very alert. I noticed yesterday that her odd behavior didn't appear until after they had been awake for about an hour. We'll see how she does later on.

[CandoAviary]

This hen loves to worry you, doesn't she
Have you ever treated her for air sac mites? Sometimes the first symptoms are inactivity and a general "under the weather look". As it progresses their is lack of voice/song... in a hens case a less loud call. Their will be open mouth breathing which shows some difficulty getting a breath. The hen will have less energy and nap more due to the lack of oxygen. Advance cases you can hear a click while breathing or even see the black mites of the throat if you wet the feathers....
Treatment is simple for this, iverlux or S76.
If it is respiatory may need antibiotics.
Egg labor will cause these syptoms for a short period of time, But if the egg is not passed then the hen will go to the botton of the cage and strain trying to push the egg out... they rarely last more than a day if this is the case... I would think not the cause of your hen's problem.
Many times the stress of breeding, or the stress of anything (moving, rearing chicks, molting, etc.) can bring to the surface something that is underlying. Some birds can be carrying a disease without showing symptoms and as they enter a situation of stress, breeding, bring the hidden disease to the surface....
Seems strange that she has not gotten the black beak, yet acts like she wants to breed. This would make me wonder why she is not coming into breeding condition. Was her beak black before and is it possible that she has come out of condition? Has her beak ever turned black?
Could be that the male has been chasing her unrelentlously and she is just exhauseted.
Then there are the cases where a gouldian will "go off" for a few days and then resume their normal selves without any explanation at all.... I think just like us, we have our bad day and good days.
You are doing the best thing, watch her closely for improvements or God forbid, worsening. Though if she hasn't been treated for ASM I would treat, it won't hurt.
There are many things that causes these symptoms, so it is impossible to tell for sure without a fecal smear/stain. Then they don't always detect the problem either Just guessing and treating is not always the best approach, but sometimes it's the only approach. Many times you just have to rule out what it's not.
Hopefully, it is just a case of fatique from a male trying to breed her when she is not in breeding condition.... in this case seperating them would be the course of action.

[MLaRue]

A few thoughts -

My birds are in this extreme heat right now and they do not pant or open mouth breath unless I try to catch one. So, I don't think heat would do this either.

Any type of green coloring in the poop is not normal unless she has been eating fresh greens, I don't feed my birds pellets but I would imagine the food coloring in pellets would also discolor their normal poops.

There is no real scientific proof that ACV cures or prevents anything, the concentration would have to be too strong for our finches.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/apple-cider-vinegar
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _20152545/

You will find just as many articles claiming all the good from regular use of vinegar (the mother kind).

I really think the hen is stressed from now the pressure of his wanting to breed, she is showing him that she is no longer interested because I don't think these two birds were ever compatible and that she isn't actually in breeding condition. It reminds me of a couple that marries for all the wrong reasons, they learn to be amicable but never truly loving one another.

Usually the hunched looking miserable Gouldian is a sign of a bacterial/fungal/yeast problem. And, yes they will continue to eat because their bodies are not able to absorb the nutrition they need. But in reality a puffed up bird is a sign of anything wrong.

[DCbeachboy]

Seems strange that she has not gotten the black beak, yet acts like she wants to breed. This would make me wonder why she is not coming into breeding condition. Was her beak black before and is it possible that she has come out of condition? Has her beak ever turned black? Could be that the male has been chasing her unrelentlously and she is just exhausted.

Yes, her beak was very black earlier this year, around February, when I hadn't yet supplied them with a nestbox because they weren't yet a year old. But they began molting in the spring and her beak has been white ever since. As for him chasing her, I have only seen this happen since I returned home this week, and it wasn't really a chase....he merely tried to mount her after they had completed their courtship dance. Although occasionally I've noticed in recent days that he will chase her away from a perch or feeding station now and then -- which is VERY uncharacteristic of him to do, and equally uncharacteristic of her to allow it. I've often joked that she's the alpha-bird of the cage, so with this sudden passivity it's almost as if she is another bird altogether these past few days.

I really think the hen is stressed from now the pressure of his wanting to breed, she is showing him that she is no longer interested because I don't think these two birds were ever compatible and that she isn't actually in breeding condition.

I hear you, but I think I probably haven't done a very good job of explaining just how bonded these birds really are. She was in breeding condition earlier this year, for about 2 months, and came out of it only because she entered a molt. From about the 3rd day they were introduced to each other last October, these two have roosted each night cuddled so tightly together you'd think they were Siamese twins. They not only sleep together, they also eat at the same time, bathe together, sit side by side much of the day, and she often sits next to him listening to him sing for literally 8 hours/day, seeming to enjoy every minute. And of course, she joins in his courtship dance and wiggles her tail almost every time he initiates it -- which typically is 4-5 times/day, recently. I really can't imagine two birds being less bonded than these two. True, she has shown some aggression toward him in the past, but that seems to have been a passing phase that ended a few months ago, and in retrospect I'm also thinking it may have been more playful behavior than aggression. Because even during that time, she still seemed tightly bonded with him -- day and night.

UPDATE: She began showing the same symptoms again later this morning, so I took her to a local avian vet to be checked before she declines further. He confirmed that her droppings were normal -- both visually and microscopically -- and that she is neither eggbound nor carrying eggs. Whew! He doesn't think she has air-sac mites because he didn't hear any clicking, and she wasn't showing any signs at all of respiratory problems. She acted perfectly normal in the vet's office (of course!), so he couldn't see any of the symptoms I've been seeing these past 2-3 days. But based on my description, he believes she must have contracted a bacterial infection. It's impossible for them to poop in their water or feed, as I've diligently arranged their cage to prevent that problem. This can only mean the bacteria would have been introduced from outside their environment. I sterilize everything that enters their cage (including my hands), with the sole exception being their food -- and if I could think of a way, I'd sterilize that, too! So I'm afraid the most likely culprit is my sitter who cared for them while I was away, and who must not have heeded my request to sterilize his hands before changing their water and feed. As the saying goes: If you want something done right, you've got to just do it yourself.

Even though the vet didn't believe ASMs were the problem, he did treat her for that -- just in case -- and also gave her a breast injection of antibiotics to hopefully rid whatever is causing her distress. I left the vet feeling confident she's on the road to recovery. Vet bill: $200. Taxi to vet: $50. Peace of mind in knowing that your hen is ok: Priceless!

She retreated to her back cage corner after we returned home, and has remained quiet. But as I type this, she's enjoying a lunch of fresh kale -- her first in a couple of weeks. I'm very hopeful that by the first of the week she'll be back to normal again.

[cindy]

You did the best thing for her...hopefully she will recover well and be tip top soon.

Does your caretaker have birds?

Personally I didn't realize how many times I wash my hands while feeding and watering my birds until last night...I should by stock in the company that makes antibacteria soap!

[lovemyfinch]

Glad the vet was able to give you peace of mind

[debbie276]

Glad things turned out well for you!
best of luck

[CandoAviary]

Wow... $250.00.... you must really love that loud mouth
I must admit...I never wash my hands unless I have left the quarantine building or handled a sick finch
I think some germs are good for a bird My husband always gets on me about licking my fingers to turn a page... he says..."yopu don't know who else has read that magazine! What if they were a finger licker too" I tell him it helps to expose yourself to
everyday germs, they build a stronger immune system. I then remind him of this everytime he is sick and I am perfectly healthy serving him soup in bed
Anyway, I wouldn't be too hard on your birdsetter. The bird could of pecked a cling on poop from her bum
Gald all is well and you have piece of mind. I think the hen was just peeved at you for going on vacation with her... pay back

[DCbeachboy]

Does your caretaker have birds?

No....he doesn't. Just a dog. But he used to keep zebra finches many years ago.

Wow... $250.00.... you must really love that loud mouth I must admit...I never wash my hands unless I have left the quarantine building or handled a sick finch I think some germs are good for a bird

Yes, I do love both my birds tremendously....but more importantly, I know how much the male seems to love her, and I know he would be completely lost if something happened to her.

As for the germ issue: Tiffany and I have had this very same discussion. Disinfection covers a very range of tactics -- from a very casual whenever-I-remember-to-wash approach on one end of the scale, to a strict the-only-good-germ-is-a-dead-germ approach at the other end. You, I, Tiffany, and the vast majority of folks seem to fall somewhere in the middle -- though you and Tiffany definitely seem to fall closer to the casual end, and I'm closer to the stricter end. As I told her, I'm not so foolish as to believe I can completely eliminate ALL germs from their environment -- thus reducing their risk of contracting anything to 0%. But I firmly believe in at least significantly reducing their risk by preventing their exposure to any microbes that I can easily prevent from entering their cage.

It's very much like the age-old debate over taking care of one's health. Some say, "If cancer doesn't kill you, something else will" -- so they put very little effort into protecting their own health. Qué será será, they say. Others do the exact opposite -- going completely overboard, taking dozens of vitamins daily and living much of their lives paranoid about the latest health scare.

I personally can't find relevance in either extreme. We can -- and should -- do whatever we can to reduce our various health risks, while recognizing that there will be some risks that we just can't practically or prudently eliminate from our lives. If there's a simple preventive measure I can take to protect my health, I'll do it....but I refuse to obsess over it. This is the approach I take with my own health, and the approach I use with my birds.

I couldn't agree with you more on the importance of allowing their exposure to common everyday germs in order to build their immune systems, and I can probably do a bit better in that regard. I'm certain that I go further than many in providing them as sterile an environment as I can easily manage. But as caged animals that are never exposed to the outside environment (unlike us humans), there is no reason I can't protect them from many of the outside germs to which they otherwise might be exposed. Excluding a few occasional odd behaviors now and then that turned out to be nothing, the fact that neither bird has been sick during the 10 months I've had them must mean I've been doing something right. No, their cage is not kept sterile -- far from it. But neither do I allow it to become a pigpen. After all, I adopted birds, not pigs.

UPDATE: As of this morning my hen seems to be fully back to her old self again, in terms of activity and behavior. With one exception: She is still extraordinarily quiet and reserved. Not that I'm complaining!! This is obviously a very welcome, and unexpected, change....considering how loud, noisy and frantic she had been for the month or so prior to my trip.

She has always behaved much like the "alpha bird" of the cage -- even during the 6 months she wasn't loudly calling every 3-4 seconds throughout the day. I don't know exactly what happened during my absence the past couple of weeks, but it's almost as if she has now accepted the male's dominance and completely abandoned her alpha-like behavior. As of today both she and the male have resumed their endless search for a nesting site. And maybe that's partly what I was seeing a few days ago -- just some unease and stress as she slowly settles into her new more passive role....one in which she's not yet entirely comfortable, but is willing to learn. And, as you suggest, Candace....I do believe she was stressed somewhat by my absence, and -- whether consciously or not -- was in her own way rebelling. She may be evolving into young ladyhood, but she's still very much a teenager at heart.