FINCHforum

Everyone,
I have been online with Cindy most of the afternoon and evening trying to save two of my rccb's. Unfortunately they both died while we were problem solving treatment options. Just before the second one died we found another finch from their same flight that has a wet vent. So, now we are wondering if the flock has cocciodosis. The birds all appeared fine yesterday, but today when I came home from work, the rccb birds were on the floor of the cage with white, sticky or gooey droppings and looked like they were straining. We thought at first it was an egg bound hen until we saw the male was having the same problem. They died within the last five hours. A quick death. The newest one we found, seems to have energy, unlike the other two, but the vent is wet and tail feathers are messy.
Please, any thoughts? Cindy and I were thinking of Cocci Care? The link on lady gouldian gives some more information about the symptoms and what we are thinking may be happening.
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/featur ... diosis.php

If indeed this is it since a third bird now has the symptoms you will need to clean your cages down extremely well since this can live in the enviroment...it is past from an infected bird through it's droppings, if the droppings are left in water or food the oocyst is ingested by another bird that bird becomes a host and when weakened or stress it will start showing signs and sheds the oocyst. Bleach and water, clean food dishes and water cup. Wash your hands well after handling the birds or their dropping.

So sorry to hear about your RCCB's. I hope the problem can be contained and quickly sorted out. Cleaning everything sounds like a good idea, regardless of what they have - it is amazing what can persist in the environment.

Cindy
Thanks so much! The kids and I plan to get up early, to avoid the Texas heat, and clean cages!! Woohoo! We are all motivated to avoid losing any more birds. Looking back on our finch history this year, we've lost two other birds from the same flight, but at different times and we did not make the connection. I think one or both of them was the carrier and past this onto the flock. OMG. I was just telling Sally today about how my avian vet could not even tell me why they died from a necropsy because of the sepsis that overtook their abdomens. But, this fits those finches too. I can't believe I had the meds and means, if only I'd caught it earlier. I feel so bad. Those were two of my favorite finches.

Deborah...to be on the safe side collect up the dead male and put him in a baggie, put his body in the fridge. Also take some of the dropping to the vet...they should be able to tell if it is coccidia.

Again I am sorry about your losses.

I meant to ask is the third one passing any blood like the RCCB male did?

If I had to hazard a guess I would say a bacterial gut infection, not cocci. Cocci can be a sudden death thing too. I don't know it with a sticky poop vent though.
Sticky poop I've treated with trimethoprim with great success. Just last week I had two of my best hens die from just the same symptoms.
Very quick and little one could do to prevent their deaths since I did not notice any other symptoms until I found them on the floor labouring.

What treatments have you given thus far?

I am tempted to think that Monique may have a point.
I did have a situation similar to this a while back. I did lose the female but managed to get to the male in time. As I was unable to figure out what was going on I ended up treating the male with a broad spectrum antibiotic, followed by probiotics. He is healthy today.
The hen laid her first clutch and then went down fast. When I removed her from the cage I noticed that her breast bone was very prominent, even though she had never stopped eating. The next day he started eating so much eggfood that I knew something was wrong. I decided that loose poops in most animals almost always means bacteria, thus the reason for using the antibiotics.

The best thing to do is to get the stool samples and a sick bird or a a bird that passed to the vet. It is not 100% that this is it but considering the blood passed and the vents are wet it was the closest thing.

The one thing with coccidia is it normally comes out when the host is either stress or has another ailment going on....I posted prior but thought about what you said Monique...we thought perhaps the stress from breeding might have induced the symptoms to show but now to think about it it could be bacteria related and certain antibiotics will only work on certain strains of bacteria....this is were the vet can help. they will do swabs, slides and prescribe the correct cure. The problem may be two fold.

Once you start treating the birds I would still remove the birds from the flight, remove everything, clean and bleach and replace with all new clean items, nest, perches cups.

I agree 100% Cindy that the best course of action is to go to a vet and get a diagnosis.
I was lucky in that I had just recently done that and my birds got an all clear of parasites and protozoan diseases. However they did show up a high number of strep. bacteria which was a common species and we thought a side effect from the most pressing issue. Yet not surprising either as bacterial infections also take hold when the birds immune systems are down (also when breeding or under stress).

I was losing a bird a day to this "thing" that suddenly occured and I had a choice to make to do nothing till a vet could see me on the Monday or give them an antibiotic for what I suspected was the cause. I tried Baytril for the two worst birds with no improvement after 24hours. The adult died and the youngest was close to falling over and got very disorientated. As you say the correct med's need to be used. I discarded the baytril and used the trimethoprim and within 12 hours the improvement was dramatic. I then dosed all my birds and they have been fine since.
I spoke to my vet during the week thereafter and he was happy with the treatment.
I used a broad spectrum anti-bacterial specifically for intenstinal issues.

It is best to get a professional opinion, yet sometimes we find ourselves in a predicament when we have to make a quick decision. I chose and thankfully the results showed themselves within a short space of time and before any more birds showed up on deaths door.

I would not discard Cocci. Especially if you have not treated for this preventatively during the year. Hopefully your vet can give you a diagnosis soon.

Youv'e all done the best you could under the circumstances of not knowing what was wrong. Sorry for the loss of the birds though. It's never easy.

My daughter, who by the way wants to be a vet, examined both birds and found what looked like dried eggfood mixed with pooh, shells etc. together that was stuck at the vent area. She said it looked like it was blocking them from going. The females' was larger and more round, but the males' was long and tubular. She said it smelled like rotten eggs mixed with the pooh. The other finch with wet vent is staying by the heat lamp but is active. No droppings in the hospital cage since last night.
I was going to treat with Cocci Care, but maybe I should go with the antibiotic?
I'll try to get a stool sample for the vet and ask them about looking at the two that died.
We are cleaning cages this morning! Lots to clean before it gets too hot outside here. It is already 96 degrees.

They may have both had wet vent and sat in their food . The fact you found a third is a concern.. I would be cautious in using a antibiotic unless it is bacteria specfic. Not all antibiotic cures everything, you need your vet's help? Did you put the RCCB body in the fridge as suggested last night?

So sorry to learn you lost the male RCCB, Deborah, I know these two were special to you. It kind of sounds like maybe a bacterial infection at this point, especially since you now have a third sick bird from the same flight. I hope the vet can give you some answers and direction.

I am going to get some of that trimethiprim that Monique said she had used. When I searched for it, it sounds like something good to have on hand for emergencies. I have been very fortunate in that I have never had illness go thru my flock. I've certainly lost many birds, but it has almost always been one at a time, often when I suspected the bird was old. In fact, I found a dead Fire finch hen this morning, but when I checked her, this was one I bought in 2007 I think it was, my first group of imports, so no telling how old she was.

I'll be thinking of you and the kids today, hoping that you find out what is going on with your birds. Cleaning everything is a first step, not a fun job in our record heat.

If it is cocci, then cocci care will not treat it. Cocci care is just a prevenative, it will not cure cocci Once the birds have cocci you need something stonger to elimanate the protozoa. Trimethaprim Sulfa is a good treatment for protozan infestation and also since it's a combo drug, has the antibiotics for bacterial infection.
Best yet, as others have sugested, and since you have an avian vet nearby, have a fecal stain done. Sometimes the time spent speculating what is wrong is "the golden hour" for your other finches.
There are so many infections and diseases that start with the same symptoms. All sick birds get weak and fluffed.
Sorry you are experiencing this, get to you vet soon