Adverse Reaction to Scatt by my Gouldian

[cuillinmoon]

Hi everyone, this is the first time I've posted.

I have a male Gouldian called Io, just a yr old. When I got him he was badly infected with ASM so I've been using Scatt to get rid of them. Last Saturday, I treated him for the third time (have been treating him once every 3 months). With the previous treatments, he showed no sign of adverse effects, although at the time of the first treatment, he was very poorly so it would've been difficult to tell. However, this time I placed the drop on his thigh and within a couple of days, there was a marked change in him. He had been very active and agile, always flying around the room, hopping around his cage,singing and chirping, never sitting still until he settled down for bed in the evening. Also, he was very thirsty before the scatt. Now, he's become lethargic, clumsy, immobile and has a very pronounced heartbeat. He won't come out of his cage and when he did fly out of his cage because I put a millet spray in his cage, his heart was pounding and he looked exhausted, as if he was very unfit. His droppings have changed too; they were quite loose and I was using Megamix, but now they have become much more solid and less liquid and larger than before, although the same colour. He's still eating, actually eating more - but I think this may be because he can't entertain himself flying - and he's still singing, much more than before, so he's ok in himself - but he's drinking less than before.

I wondered if any of you have had this kind of reaction to Scatt before, and if you have, how long it lasted? Also, do any of you know of anything that I can do to help him over this? It's doing my head in, knowing that I've done this to him and I'd love to be able to settle his heart down so that he can fly again.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Liz

PS I have ME so if I don't get back to you straight away to let you know how he's doing, I'm not being rude, I'm just having a bad day

[lovemyfinch]

Welcome to the forum Liz
Sorry it has to be under such sad circumstances.
I have never treated more than one dose for any of my birds, so this is going to be just a thought to be confirmed by others.
I am worried that maybe this last dose was just too much. Scatt stays in the system for 21 days which is the life cycle of air sac mites. The most that I have ever heard of is a second dose if the bird still seems to be having symptoms. But in my opinion if it was not cleared up after 2 doses, it probably wasn't air sac mites.
I am terribly fearful that the third dose given when his system was probably already weakened by the 2 first ones has caused him more harm than good. I hope he is able to bounce back with a speedy recovery

[ac12]

There have been several of us that have had deaths after using SCATT. But it could be for a variety of reasons.
- Accidentally applying too much
- Applying it too offten or too close together
- Bird is heavily infected, so will die of suffocation as the ASM die and clog the lungs.
- SCATT is too strong for the small finches
- The bird has some existing illness or problem that is already weakening him.
- ?

I recall reading someplace that they suggest every 6 months for ASM treatment. If you don't bring in any new birds, the possibility of ASM coming back is reduced significantly. You might consider not treating for ASM. I only treat for ASM during quarantine, then nothing after that.

Getting back to what you might do. If you have Thrive, give him a bit of that on fresh egg food every day. And NV powder or Vitalize in the drinking water for a week.

gud luk

[finchmix22]

I agree with everyone. i gave Scatt to my finches. Just one dose and they appeared irritated by the dose. The vet told me it is easy to kill them with the Scatt by accidental overdose. She had me just use a Q-tips dipped and tapped on a paper towel to the thigh, so I didn't overdose the younger or smaller finches. I agree with putting Vitalize in water and food. You can use NV powder also. Good luck.

[cuillinmoon]

Hi Janine

Thanks for your speedy reply. I gave Io 1 drop every 3 months, so he's had 3 doses over 9 months. The scatt bottle said 'treat 3 to 4 times a yr' so I thought he had to have one drop every 3 months. After the first dose (9 months ago) the ASM cleared up and he started to sing so I was just giving him a maintenance dose the last 2 times. But I'm in agreement with you. I feel that this third dose was just too much. I wish I'd realised that I could've just given him a dose per year. I'll keep you posted as to how he goes on.

Liz

[cuillinmoon]

Hi Gary & Deborah

Thanks for your help. I'm off to buy some NV powder and Vitalize this very minute

Liz

[lovemyfinch]

Gary and Deborah have given you some very good ideas as to how to perk him up again.
I would personally also try adding a little probiotics to his diet after the vitalize has started to replace his electrolytes, just thinking that it may help boost him immune system a little quicker.

[cuillinmoon]

Hi Guys

I just thought I'd give you a quick update. As it's taking so long for the Thrive and Vitalize to arrive, I thought I'd try Io on a Homeopathic Remedy. I found 2 remedies that matched his symptoms, Sulphur and Gelsemium. Having thought about the action of Scatt on the nervous system of the ASM's, I decided to try Gelsemium, as it has an affinity with the nervous system and all of Io's symptoms are definitely nervous system derived. I've been adding 1 pill of Gelsemium 6c to his water daily (making sure that the pill is totally dissolved before I put the water fountain back in his cage so he doesn't somehow choke on the pill), figuring that every time he has a drink, he'll get a dose. Over the first 2 days, his lack of coordination, clumsiness and lethargy improved quite a bit so that on the third day, he was awake in the morning rather than me waking him up. He's quite a bit more active now, although he still won't fly and most amazing, his heart beat has slowed down a bit and isn't causing such distinct tail bobbing. I thought this info might be useful to anyone else who has a gouldie (or any bird) with a bad reaction to Scatt (bearing in mind that I'm not a vet so it would be up to them to make this decision to use this remedy).

I'm hoping that when the Thrive and Vitalize arrive, that they'll work synergetically with the Homeopathy and help to get Io back to his former self. I'll keep you posted.

Liz

[CandoAviary]

Very interesting remedy, thanks for sharing.
Here is a site/forum on homepathic remedies.... also a great natural gouldian breeder. Here is the link if you are not familiar with this health forum
http://www.essentialbird.com/

[cuillinmoon]

Hello again,

I thought I'd give you a quick update. Io is still refusing to fly, unless it's absolutely necessary. His heartbeat has slowed down slightly and is less visible and if he does fly, it isn't beating so hard afterwards. As that's slowed down, it's possible to see that he is tail bobbing slightly, which he wasn't before the scatt. But one very striking thing is that he's gone into moult. He only had a moult last April and I thought Gouldians only moulted once a yr. So do you think that this could've been triggered by the Scatt? I have thought about the idea of him having a virus or something before I put the Scatt on and that bringing out these symptoms but he was very healthy beforehand, flying around and around my sitting room, and bouncing around his cage, full of energy; no tail bobbing to be seen. The other thing is, he's still singing all day and doesn't sound hoarse; there's no sneezing or coughing either, just the tail bobbing and occasional opening the beak very wide for a few seconds in the morning. I took him to the vets today and they've given me antibiotics - Baytril (there isn't an avian vet nearby). Any ideas, would be greatly appreciated, especially with regard to the moult (so far he's lost 5 big feathers - tail feathers and lots of white fluffy ones from his chest, belly and tail).

Liz