possible egg binding?

[birdlet]

Hi everyone! This is my first post...I'm fairly new to finches, though I've kept birds of other kinds in the past.

I have a super-cute pair of zebra finches now, that I bought in mid-December 2011. They came from a pet shop, and the owner told me that they were probably both about 6 months old. I don't plan to breed...but he only had one male, so I took him and a little CFW female who was being chased a lot by the other hens in the cage at the store (she looked stressed -- I couldn't stand to leave her).

They've been doing great...happily building nests in every possible niche (I have a fairly big cage -- 4' wide, 2'4" deep, 6'9" high, with spanish moss stuffed into a backing of poultry wire). She laid a couple of ill-formed eggs in a seed cup early on, so I made sure that she has constant access to both a cuttlebone (which she ignores) and calcium-enriched grit (which I see her at several times a day). My plan was to remove the eggs and sterilize them as she laid, then replace them, so she would quit laying after her clutch was complete. Unfortunately, they've built so many nests in the moss, that I'm not sure I'm getting all of the eggs (haven't seen but one since the two first). They're not incubating, at least...so hopefully I'll be able figure out where they're hiding them once they start!

So, on to my question...the hen is fine now, but yesterday I could tell she wasn't quite right in the morning. When the male mounted her, she fell off her perch. Later, when I stepped into the cage to put in a new millet spray, rather than fly out of my reach, she fell to the floor. She flew up again, fairly quickly...but it was odd. By then end of the day, she was clearly unwell...fluffed and breathing harder than normal. She passed one rather large white dropping as I tried to get a view of her vent, but didn't seem to be straining otherwise. I had to go pick up a kid from school, and when I returned, she was on the floor of the cage, looking miserable. I'd read quite a bit about egg binding, so I caught her and gently felt about her abdomen...not sure I could really feel much, but I held her in a shallow bowl of warm water for awhile for good measure, then put her back in the cage with a heating pad. For a few hours, I thought she would die, but then she began to hop about, eat, drink...and by roosting time, was up in one of the nests with the male. Today she is as right as rain.

I never saw an egg where she was resting, but today I noticed egg yolk dripped beneath one of their better-hidden spots, so clearly there was one, at least, up there...whether it was from yesterday or not.

So, from what I've read about egg-binding symptoms, it sounds like she may have been, but I'm curious to hear what you all think. Since I never found an egg on the cage floor where she was resting, is it possible that it was stuck up higher in her reproductive tract...and once it passed that tricky spot, she was able to recover enough to make it to her nest to lay? Or does it seem like something else to you?

And, maybe most importantly, what else should I do to prevent this? I feed a commercial seed mix (the best I could find!) and spray millet, with occasional spinach and other fresh treats. I'm planning to feed egg food one of these days.

I need to find her eggs and examine them...if they're consistently odd-shaped, that may tell me something, right? The first couple were sort of hourglass-shaped. Very strange.

Thanks so much for your input!

[Sharona]

It sounds like egg binding to me. I think you did a good job. If it happens again I would immediately separate her and give her a dosage of calcium along with your other treatments. You may want to have a heat lamp available - just in case.

To prevent egg binding I give my gals Calcium Plus (it's got Calcium, Magnesium and Vitamin D), greens, hard boiled eggs and cuttlebone. I don't think your gal is getting enough calcium in her grit. I don't give my society finches any grit at all.

Egg food is as easy as boiling an egg and mashing it very finely - including the shell. My birds go crazy for it! Just be sure to finely grind the egg shell.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the much more experienced members have to say about the odd shaped eggs.

Unfortunately, they've built so many nests in the moss, that I'm not sure I'm getting all of the eggs (haven't seen but one since the two first). They're not incubating, at least...so hopefully I'll be able figure out where they're hiding them once they start!

I'm pretty new but it seems odd to me that they are building more than one nest. My societies focus solely on one nest. Are you wanting babies? Because I think with the moss in the avairy you are going to get babies like it or not.

Hope she continues to get better and has better luck with her next eggs.

[Sharona]

I've been searching the forum about the odd shaped eggs and found a post by Candace (CandoAviary) that she has seen the hourglass shaped egg before. Hopefully she'll see this and can share her knowledge.

I also remember when I lived on a farm our chickens would sometimes lay hourglass eggs - if I remember correctly those were normally double yolked.

My gut instinct says in this case the odd shape is due to problems passing the eggs and once you add the calcium supplement you'll see a difference.

Keep us updated!

PS Trust me when I say there are many more educated people on the board than me and I usually don't post much because I'm so new but since no one has had a chance to reply I thought I would so you would have a little info before you went to bed.

[dan78]

This does sound alot like egg binding. As stated I would up calcium during the breeding cycle,if there isn't enough calcium gained by the grit and cuttlefish bone then the hens reproductive system will start taking the calcium straight from her body which are the bones. So if you add a calcium supplement to the water/softfood this will help ensure that there is sufficient amount of calcium to build strong shells and every birds individualneed of calcium is different. Congratulations is in order for noticing that your bird wasn't right and with the swift action you just may have saved her life, the only thing I wouldn't have done is place bird in water as this would stress a bird more in a very stressful situation , all I use is heat and a bit of humidity as this works great most times and in bad situations liquid calcium straight into mouth. Now I will give you a some of tips which has taken me a while to learn 1/ codliver oil added to seed about once a week has seemed to help reduce my hens which get egg bound 2/ please once you see an egg bound hen don't touch vent area this can kill a hen due to destroying egg inside 3/a good multi vitamin supplement given once before breeding season once during and once after will help keep them healthy 4/ reduce the amount of spinach as this can stop calcium absorption try to supplement with asain cabbage. These are things which are working for me hope they help.

[cindy]

Soft egg and egg binding, I agree. When you give the boiled egg grate it with the shell and serve it to her with the egg shell. As everyone mentioned Calcium Plus (you can order this from ladygouldian.com http://www.redbirdproducts.com/ http://www.rockportaviansupplies.com/medications.html)

The spinach I would serve not so often but instead serve romaine, veggies.

This site from the FIC will help with good veggies, what to give and what not to give

http://www.finchinfo.com/diet/safe_toxi ... _foods.php

A heat lamp for her to go to will also help.

She is apparently calcium depleted, you may also want to get a cuttlebone to hang in the cage along with another to grate finely alongd with a mineral block (pet stores WalMart) grate that finely alos and mix it with the grated cuttlebone for her to go to as needed.

[birdlet]

Thanks,thanks! I'm going to give them some egg food today...served them the crushed shells yesterday (the hen is eating some as I type!). The grit I bought has oyster shell in it, so I had been hoping it would do the trick, but obviously not.

I'm thrilled to have all the feeding/supplement advice! I hate feeling like these birds are guinea pigs. I think they'll survive my learning curve, though...

Their building so many nests drives me nuts. The giant cage was a gift from my in-laws...my dad-in-law built it himself for them to breed societies years ago. He based the plan on one he'd seen at a nursing home. It is pretty cool, and I love it, but there are some design issues that I wish I could change. The crazy amount of moss in the back, for one (the lack of a pull-out tray at the bottom for another!). I put two nests (one open cup, one covered, cavity-like). They happily constructed nests in both of them, and are now busily making tunnels through the moss back. Stinkers. When I go in to change their litter, I try to feel around the tunnels for eggs and tuck the moss back into place in the poultry wire back there, but it's not long before they're shuffling around in it again. I guess it gives them something to do... When I think they're incubating, I'll have to get a stool in there and get a proper look. Maybe if I move the eggs to a "real" nest (after I stick them in the freezer for a bit), they'll follow them there?

I brought home a pair of RCCBs last weekend...they're still in quarantine for a few weeks longer, but maybe when I add them to the mix, it'll slow the zebras down a little. They'll have something to distract them from endless nest construction... I've heard RCCBs aren't such ready breeders (which was part of the reason I got this pair -- that, and I just couldn't pass them up!).

Thanks again! I'm going to go mash up their eggfood now, and serve it up!

[dan78]

Its good to hear that your hen seems fine definitely keep up the supplements as this will insure good health, hopefully she will stop nesting so it will give her a much needed rest. If nesting isn't dropping you may need to remove one so they both can rest, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. As I have breed both zebs and RCCB I doubt very much that the cordons will stop the zebs from breeding it will be the opposite way around. Unfortunately shell grit by itself isn't really a good source of calcium a mistake made by alot of breeders new and old, a mistake that I've been corrected on myself, but a good calcium minerals mix will fix this, I believe Cando has a recipe for this, and if using something like that you can slow down the offers of calcium added to softfood or water. Hope all the best for these two sounds like you have your hands full.

[CandoAviary]

Eggbinding is cause for concern and can be from many different reasons.
Even if the hen has a good supply of calcium unless she has access to sun light or Vitamin D3 she will not be able to absorb it. Calcium is also needed for the muscles to properly push the egg out.
http://www.birdcareco.com/English/Arts/ ... lcium.html
Anhen kept in small quarters will not be in good muscle tone and this can lead to eggbinding. Too young and too old can present problems.
A hen bred continuously will also suffer from eggbinding, or worse... a prolaspe.
If it were my hen I would seperate her..and any other hens to a seperate cage from the males. I would build the hen up with a good seed and pellet food. Greens rich in calcium. I would give a product like calciboost or calcium plus (contains vitaamin D3) I also would provide ABBA mineral grit which has the vit. D also.
Here's my mix:
http://finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11830
I would not give a nest and give the hen as much space to fly for excercise to strenghten those egg pushing muscles.
A good rest with a good diet should get your hen back in condition.
When you do go back to breeding (in 4 to 6 months)