Baby zebra finch twirling...

[tommytomtom17]

Hello,
I am a new zebra finch owner, we got our daughter two finches for Christmas. They laid 5 eggs when we first got them but they didn't hatch, so we removed the eggs after 25 days. A little over a week later they laid 5 more. Those eggs hatch a couple weeks later and everything seemed to be going well. Today one jumped out of the nest, (they are about 18 days old now) and I noticed that it is "twirling"?. Looks like he is dizzy or something. We put him back in the nest and started doing some research. My daughter noticed him doing this about a week ago but I didn't know what it could be. I guess I need to contact a vet and start meds but I am not sure if I need to separate him from the others? Will he be able to eat and drink on his own? Can the others catch what he has? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Tom

[MiaCarter]

tommytomtom17 --- Hi Tom!

Can you get a video of the little guy? That would be helpful.

Twirling can be caused by a few different problems. Some are contagious.

Viruses, inner ear infections and fungal infections are the three most common causes.

A baby would be especially prone to infection due to their undeveloped immune system.

If you're quite positive it's twirling, I would treat with an antibiotic called Trimethoprim Sulfa and an antifungal drug called Nystatin/Medstatin.

You can get both of those medications here:
http://www.ladygouldian.com/
(They're both great medications to have-on hand anyways.)

That worked for my zebra and it covers the two most treatable causes of twirling -- ear infection and fungal infections.
You always want to administer these drugs together in my experience, as Trimethoprim Sulfa kills off the good bacteria that keep yeast in check, leaving the birds prone to yeast infections. Babies are already prone to yeast infections as it is. So the Nystatin/Medstatin will prevent that problem.

Since you can't isolate the affected baby without having him starve to death, I think you're going to need to treat everyone - the parents and the affected baby (unless you're comfortable giving medications by crop tube.)

I think it's highly likely that he's got an ear infection. That's the most likely cause of balance problems. It's likely his development will be delayed. He may not voluntarily come out of the nest for a while (though if he's got balance issues, he may fall out.) This may cause him to be slow on learning to eat and drink. But if you treat him straight away, he should start showing improvement in fairly short order. In the interim, the parents should feed him.

I would also get them some probiotics to help repopulate healthy gut flora after the antibiotics.

[tommytomtom17]

Mia,
Thank you for your reply. I will try to get video of him tomorrow, hopefully he will hop out or maybe his brothers and sisters will get out of the nest so I can get a good view of him. Am I able to get the meds and probiotics from the vet? I'm not sure if it's okay to wait to get them online. If he has had it for a week how long does he have? If the parents are feeding him he should be okay right?

[Sally]

If these babies are only 18 days old, they are barely at fledging age. Are you positive it is twirling, or could it simply be the uncoordinated moves of a baby? When babies first come out of the nest, especially if they fall or are knocked out a day or two early, they can be very uncoordinated, sort of ricocheting around the cage. Twirling is not that common, so I personally would not jump to that conclusion just yet. There is no great hurry, birds live a long time with twirling. IMO, it would be far better to wait and not jump to a hasty diagnosis, I don't believe in medicating birds unless I know for sure what they have.

[Sally]

I forgot to add my welcome to the forum, though it is not under the best of circumstances. There's lots of good reading at http://www.finchinfo.com, where you will find many articles on general finch care and especially the Zebra finch. If you put your general location in your profile, it makes it easier to answer locale-specific questions later on.

If the parents are feeding the baby, I personally would take a wait and see attitude, there may be nothing at all wrong with this baby.

[MiaCarter]

tommytomtom17 -- A video would definitely be helpful.
As Sally mentioned, it could just be uncoordinated baby movements so I'm interested to see.

Was he tilting his head at odd angles? That would almost definitely be suggestive of twirling.
If it was just seeming really clumsy, that could just be uncoordinated baby movements. (Though 18 days of age seems to be a bit older than I'd expect for such poor coordination. I've had zebras fledge around this age without trouble.)

I'm tempted to believe that there is something wrong with him if he's acting in a way that's significantly different from the siblings.

If you have an avian vet nearby and you can bring him in within the next day or so, I would. They should definitely have the appropriate medications for him. Antibiotics and antifungal medications are pretty commonplace.

They may not stock probiotics, but those aren't as essential (and you'd need to wait until they finish the antibiotics, so you'd be looking at at least 10 days, so plenty of time to order them online.)

Laraine at LadyGouldian.com tends to ship very promptly. I usually get her package within 3 days. I know she offers a bunch of shipping options so I'm sure she could expedite it if you needed it. It's hard to say if he can wait for a shipment. If he's eating and he's been more or less stable for several days now, then chances are he can wait. If he's declining, then perhaps not.

The only problem with opting for the vet is that you will either need to bring the entire cage --- parents, babies, everything. That's a lot of disruption that could lead them to abandon.
Or you could pull the sick one and take only him. But time would be of the essence. He couldn't be out for more than 90-120 minutes, assuming he's got a full crop. And you'd need to put him in a warm box (you could use some microwavable heat packs, covered with some paper towels or a small blanket.)

I think a video will be helpful. I think we can probably determine if what you're seeing is normal or problematic.
It may be tough to capture a video if it's a closed nest. A flashlight may help illuminate him.
If you can take him out of the nest, that would be even better as we would see more movement.

[tommytomtom17]

Thanks for all the help guys. Ive got a video of him but don't know how to attach it. Can anyone help? Its almost like his head is being pushed to one side constantly and he is fighting it back to the other direction? like his beak has a rubber band on it....

[Sally]

tommytomtom17 If you can post it on YouTube, you can post a link to it here.

[tommytomtom17]

Here is the video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EBV-zl7Cb7 ... e=youtu.be

[tommytomtom17]

Better quality...

http://youtu.be/7Lt5mxMH-_g

[Sally]

The beginning of the video looks like any normal baby begging for food. Towards the end, the baby is turning its head around to the right, but without seeing the whole big picture, it is difficult to tell if the baby is just looking around at something, like one of its parents or siblings.

Not on topic, but I notice that the baby's leg is through the cage grate. I don't use grates in my cages, but if I did, I would cover that grate with newspaper, paper towel, or something else to prevent the baby getting its leg caught in the grate. Though it doesn't happen very often, babies can get their legs caught in those grates and break them. IMO it is easier for the babies to get around on the cage floor if there is not a grate or if the grate is covered.

[tommytomtom17]

Thanks Sally. That's a good point about their legs. I just took the grate out of the cage. The only time he doesn't move his head like that is if he is sleeping. As soon as he wakes it starts, non of the other babies move anything like him. I'm worried he isn't going to develop properly, one of his brothers/ sisters is already flying! Everyone else can hop out of the nest and can get back in on their own. Does his movements resemble twirling? I'm hoping to get him to vet tomorrow but a bit worried he will be away too long... I will take some baby food and try to feed him if we go. Thank you again for all the info and I will keep you up to date.

[Sally]

I've never had to deal with twirling in my birds, and I've only seen it in adult birds, so I can't say for sure that it is twirling. If you decide to take the baby to the vet, at this age it should be able to be separated from the parents for three hours. I've never had to do this with parent-raised babies, but when I hand feed babies, I'm only feeding about every three hours at this age, and they do absolutely fine for that length of time. You can take hand feeding formula with you if you want, but many babies at this age will refuse hand feeding. Since it is fully-feathered, just keep it warm and protected from drafts.

[MiaCarter]

Hmm...that is very odd.

It looks more like seizure activity than twirling.
The repetitive and seemingly uncontrolled movement is what makes me think seizure. But it's possible it IS twirling and the movement is him trying to beg. It's hard to say, as I've never seen twirling in a baby this young.

Can you take a longer video - maybe 3-5 min - so we can watch him for a few minutes? (i'd also keep the video on your phone so you can show the vet if he doesn't show the problematic behavior during your visit!)

Does this happen all the time or in bursts?
If it's more episodic, it would be suggestive of seizures (which could be caused by something in the environment, epilepsy or another health problem. Since none of the others are affected, I'd say an environmental cause is unlikely.)
Of course, constant or near-constant seizure activity is also possible. But that usually involves pretty serious brain damage. His movements and behavior seem too normal for this.

I think this is definitely one for the vet.

If it's seizure activity, it could be due to an injury, a birth defect or an infection. Infection is treatable. And you can administer anti-seizure meds too; those would be required daily for a lifetime.

It would be difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's quite simple. (If you do need to medicate him daily, I would start handling him now and keep handling him to get him acclimated to you. That will make life much easier for him and for you.)

If it's not treatable, you may just need to accommodate his special needs. There is a chance (likely, in fact) that he will have a really difficult time weaning. But if he can figure it out, he should be okay. (It's possible you may need to supplement him as he figures out the eating thing if his parents stop feeding. That can happen on occasion if you have a baby who's delayed.)
He may never fly like the others, but he should still be able to hop around and socialize and enjoy life in his own way. He clearly has control over other areas of his body (like his legs.)

I would also be prepared for the fact that the vet may recommend euthanasia. Some vets are quicker to euthanize than others.
Personally, I only euthanize when there is no other option and life no longer has any redeeming qualities. I let the animal "tell" me that they're ready to go.

I don't think this guy is ready to go at all. He seems very lively. The fact that he's begging and moving about on his own is wonderful! The fact that he's begging tells me that he wants to live and he feels good. If he felt sick, he wouldn't be begging like that.
There's a good chance he'll never be "normal" but if he can figure out how to eat and drink on his own, I think there's a good chance he'll find his way. So I wouldn't euthanize. Not yet, anyways.

I really would love to see a longer video to see how he moves when he's not begging.

Near the end, his head is shaking back and forth while looking over his right shoulder. Does he ever do that when he's not begging?

I'm also very curious to hear what the vet says about this.

[tommytomtom17]

http://youtu.be/GC3EstX5A1Q

Here's a longer vid. I'm going to vet to get to the vet Friday. I've noticed that when he is relaxed in the nest he seems fine. But when he begs for food or wide awake his head moves. I'm thinking maybe it's an inner ear infection? He seems to be really dizzy and maybe that's why he's so uncoordinated?