Air Sac Mites or Respiratory Infection?

[finchlover24]

Hi guys,

Hope everyones finch babies are doing weil

I'm really hoping that I'm being paranoid.. but I've been listening to Cooper and her breathing sounds off.. Every time I try to get video of her, she stops. It sounds similar to this (not exactly but this is the closest I could find) on a very subtle scale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oQoD0ypx10

The only two possibilities I could think of were Air Sac Mites or a respiratory infection. She's still on the treatment of tri sulfa/ronex until tuesday night. Am I being paranoid? I really hope so but I figured it's better safe than sorry. If it is asm, then I hope I caught it early enough. :/

@cindy Sally debbie276 lnlovesorange lovezebs

[lovezebs]

finchlover24

What is going on with these two feathered kids?
It seems that they are having a lot of health problems in a very short period of time.

I think we need to start looking at diet, lighting, temperatures, housing and so on.

You have mentioned on several occasions, that your Dad, also has Zebras. Is he experiencing similar problems with his birds?

[cindy]

The breathing sounds wet... your birds are upstairs and his are downstairs right?

[Sally]

Sorry, but I can't be of any help. I don't know enough to diagnose over the internet, and my personal philosophy is not to treat a bird unless I know what I am treating. I'd rather do nothing than give the wrong treatment, as I believe I can do more harm by simply trying out different medications.

[finchlover24]

lovezebs cindy I have no idea what's going on but it's getting me scared. If it's not one thing, it's another. The video I linked isn't my bird, Cooper sounds similar to that but it's her voice in the background of the noise unlike that bird. It's also very, very faint. I have to close the door and stay completely silent to hear it but it's there.

With my dad's birds, nothing like this is going on right now. I check on them every night and all of them seem fine.

CURRENT DIET:

- Higgin's Vita Seeds
- Boiled Egg: every night with medistatin
- Cooper hasn't been wanting as much egg as Meepin, but I make sure both of them get at least a bite or two with the Medistatin in it.
- Water: Tri Sulfa/Ronex mixed
- Spray Millet
- Lafeber's Finch Granules

LIGHTING:

They have light available to them at all times except during the night. In the morning, I open the blinds for natural sunlight and toward the night my bedroom light is on. Right before bed, I leave my phone light on as a nightlight to let them know it's bed time. Once they are in their nests, the night is turned off. Bedtime is typically from 9:30pm - 5:15am EST.


TEMPERATURE:

My house is currently the regular room temperature. We have the heat on since we are approaching winter (I'm in southcoast MA).

**** I have gotten some video of Cooper. It's very, very faint but you can hear it. After I call her name, she meeps, and then it starts. There is a lot of beak wiping involved. This is also the first video I have of Meepin serenading Cooper! Pardon my allergies in the video lol. How do I attach videos? *****


HOUSING:

They are in a large cage separated by a plastic grid to prevent plucking. The paper towel lining their cage is changed every night and they also get fresh water every day if not multiple times if it gets dirty.


ENVIRONMENT:

cindy
These two babies are in my bedroom while the rest are downstairs. I have not used hairspray or any aerosols since I first got Meepin. No perfumes, dry shampoo, nothing. I don't even blowdry my hair or use a vacuum in my room since I don't want to scare them. They also have toys (bells, swings, etc) that they play with.

Oh my gosh, Meepin just emerged from his nest with a mouthful of string!

AGES:

Cooper - 4 Months 3 Weeks 3 Days
Meepin - 7 Months 3 Weeks 3 Days


I read here:

http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/product_s76.php

That S76 can be used to prevent air sac mites. If that isn't what Cooper has, can we still give it to both of them as a preventative? Or is that a bad idea?

If it's a respiratory infection, I don't know how to go about that. This is so frustrating because I do my best to take good care of them and one after the other, more things pop up that are making them sick.

That's alright, Sally. Thank you for all of the help you were able to give me.

**** I held her up to my ear, and I can hear a clicking/squeaking (wheezing?) at some times. It's not the entire time, but it's there. ***

[debbie276]

To positively diagnose ASM:
ASM's can be seen with the naked eye if you wet the feathers on the neck and trans-illuminate the trachea with a bright penlight. It's best done in a dark room, the mites can be seen as dark pinhead size moving spots in the trachea.

They are getting quite a few medications right now , not sure another medication would be a good thing if your not positive of a diagnoses.

[finchlover24]

debbie276 Oh no, I'd be starting the treatment for whatever this is after they get a couple of doses of probiotic once this treatment is over on Tuesday. Thank you so much for that! I'll be doing that once I get home from class. Hopefully she doesn't have anything.

[finchlover24]

lovezebs debbie276 Starting to look like mites (unless they do the same thing with a respiratory infection?) I just saw her breathing and the clicking/wheezing was a bit louder while trying to eat a seed.

Like this but on a very, very light scale (no coughing up anything, just open mouth breathing with the clicking.. almost sounds like us when we have a cold and theres stuff in our lungs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_LizIpm2g



Video of Cooper (other one is processing):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzAZww ... sp=sharing

[debbie276]

I would actually lean more towards a respiratory infection then mites. Symptoms are almost exactly the same for both that's why being able to diagnose ASM with a penlight is extremely helpful. You wouldn't want to be wasting time treating for the wrong thing when time is of the essence with birds.

[finchlover24]

debbie276 What would I buy for a respiratory infection? Im at school until 3 today so Id rather buy for mites and an infection and not waste time. Ill just treat her with a medication based on me checking her throat when i get home. Its better to have those things on hand right?

[debbie276]

It would depend on what type of an infection they have, fungal, bacterial and/or protozoa. I would not feel confident enough to diagnose online.
If your birds have not been exposed to ASM from another bird it would be safe to say they do not have ASM, especially once you look later today. Then it just becomes a question of which type of infection they may have.
Seeing how you are already working closely with Cindy, giving several meds to your birds, she may be the best one to help you figure that out.

[cindy]

lovezebs cindy I have no idea what's going on but it's getting me scared. If it's not one thing, it's another. The video I linked isn't my bird, Cooper sounds similar to that but it's her voice in the background of the noise unlike that bird. It's also very, very faint. I have to close the door and stay completely silent to hear it but it's there.

With my dad's birds, nothing like this is going on right now. I check on them every night and all of them seem fine.

CURRENT DIET:

- Higgin's Vita Seeds
- Boiled Egg: every night with medistatin
- Cooper hasn't been wanting as much egg as Meepin, but I make sure both of them get at least a bite or two with the Medistatin in it.
- Water: Tri Sulfa/Ronex mixed
- Spray Millet
- Lafeber's Finch Granules

LIGHTING:

They have light available to them at all times except during the night. In the morning, I open the blinds for natural sunlight and toward the night my bedroom light is on. Right before bed, I leave my phone light on as a nightlight to let them know it's bed time. Once they are in their nests, the night is turned off. Bedtime is typically from 9:30pm - 5:15am EST.


TEMPERATURE:

My house is currently the regular room temperature. We have the heat on since we are approaching winter (I'm in southcoast MA).

**** I have gotten some video of Cooper. It's very, very faint but you can hear it. After I call her name, she meeps, and then it starts. There is a lot of beak wiping involved. This is also the first video I have of Meepin serenading Cooper! Pardon my allergies in the video lol. How do I attach videos? *****


HOUSING:

They are in a large cage separated by a plastic grid to prevent plucking. The paper towel lining their cage is changed every night and they also get fresh water every day if not multiple times if it gets dirty.


ENVIRONMENT:

cindy
These two babies are in my bedroom while the rest are downstairs. I have not used hairspray or any aerosols since I first got Meepin. No perfumes, dry shampoo, nothing. I don't even blowdry my hair or use a vacuum in my room since I don't want to scare them. They also have toys (bells, swings, etc) that they play with.

Oh my gosh, Meepin just emerged from his nest with a mouthful of string!

AGES:

Cooper - 4 Months 3 Weeks 3 Days
Meepin - 7 Months 3 Weeks 3 Days


I read here:

http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/product_s76.php

That S76 can be used to prevent air sac mites. If that isn't what Cooper has, can we still give it to both of them as a preventative? Or is that a bad idea?

If it's a respiratory infection, I don't know how to go about that. This is so frustrating because I do my best to take good care of them and one after the other, more things pop up that are making them sick.

That's alright, Sally. Thank you for all of the help you were able to give me.

**** I held her up to my ear, and I can hear a clicking/squeaking (wheezing?) at some times. It's not the entire time, but it's there. ***

Since you are treating with the two other oral drugs you can not use s76 at the same time since it is oral... you can however use Scatt or ivermectin 1% topically (skin absorbed into the blood stream). If the bird does not have ASM, if the bird sounds like the bird in the video, if it sounds like a wet respiratory issue and as Debbie mentioned if not ASM you are wasting precious time treating for the wrong thing. Does it sound wet, like fluid is in the lungs? Check the bird as Debbie described to see if you see ASM. You really need an avian vet.

With respiratory infections most vets prescribe Baytril first. Antibiotics depend on what type of bacteria it is, and as Debbie mentioned it can be fungal. We do not have a way to tell this through the web, a vet needs to examine the bird.

How far along on the other meds are you... trisulfa is an antibiotic but it may not treat an upper respiratory... I know certain antibiotics can be mixed in with ronex but not 100% sure they can be mixed in with tri sulfa. I will check on what can and can not be given while the birds are on the two med right now... how long do you have left on them?

You mentioned you have allergies... could something environmental that you and the birds are exposed to such as mold be present in the house/room or in the heating, cooling system? Mold can also cause GI issues in birds.

You really need an avian vet and especially if the bird (respiratory issue) gets worse fast. If the fluid builds up fast in the air sacs and lungs and the bird will have great difficulty getting air in and out. Ordering meds in will also take precious time.

[finchlover24]

debbie276 Oh, so they don't just get ASM like anything else? Alright, then no it's probably not. Meepin doesn't have it and they haven't been around any other birds. I just thought of it first since I've been watching videos online about birds to get an idea about their illnesses and what the symptoms are.

They are on TriSulfa and Ronex for their weird poops (which are getting better). She just started showing these symptoms last night. Thank you so much debbie. I'll do the light exam later today and see how that goes. I don't feel comfortable giving them multiple antibiotics without knowing what's going on either, but at least their poop is getting better.

With the medications they are on right now (medistatin for fungal, trisulfa and ronex) I think we can rule out the following based on Lady Gouldian's site (http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/featur ... ratory.php):


-Protozoa (ronex is supposed to take care of that)
- E Coli (tri sulfa is supposed to take care of that)
- Chlamydia /Ornithosis (they havent been exposed to outside birds)

What's left:

- Aspergillosis (treat with megabac-s) I hope it isn't this.
- Bacterial (treats with amoxitex)
- Or anything else I don't know of.

@cindy What do you think? She definitely has something. Water in her lungs while bathing (they do splash their face around at times in the water even though its a small tube)? Or could something have developed when water gets onto the paper towel and sits for a while? I change their papers every day at 9:30pm but she couldve made a mess with the water and I didn't notice it.

Here is the other video (even if you cant hear cooper's lungs, you can still hear Meepin's serenading! ):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzAZww ... sp=sharing

Just read this on her site:


Anytime you administer a medication (including antibiotics) you should discontinue use of all other dietary supplements. Some vitamin and mineral supplements may render the medication ineffective or react with the medication leading to more illness and or organ damage.

I've been giving them the Lafeber's finch granules with their seed.. could that have caused a reaction with the antibiotics?

@cindy I don't have an avian vet around here. I would've gone a long time ago. I called around to the vets I know and they don't take birds (only dogs, cats). Tomorrow is the last day for the tri sulfa/ronex/medistatin treatment. I don't believe that there is any mold present. I'll double check but we haven't had any issues. If it were mold, i think meepin would have problems too but who knows. You mentioned baytril, would this work?

http://www.glamgouldians.com/product-enrofloxyn.php

[cindy]

It would depend on what type of an infection they have, fungal, bacterial and/or protozoa. I would not feel confident enough to diagnose online.
If your birds have not been exposed to ASM from another bird it would be safe to say they do not have ASM, especially once you look later today. Then it just becomes a question of which type of infection they may have.
Seeing how you are already working closely with Cindy, giving several meds to your birds, she may be the best one to help you figure that out.

There are several ongoing issues with your birds, pellets would not cause this, and she has not had baths for several day since on the meds.... I agree with Debbie on the possibilities of all the different types of infections it could possibly be... we would be guessing. I will check on an antibiotic, again this is a guess but please check as Debbie mentioned for the ASM. If unsure see if someone can help you as you examine the bird and possibly get a picture of the area you are checking.

Example of all the different things respiratory issues can be: I recently had a hookbill 4 yrs old, raised clutches of young for me, in good shape, all over good health, good muscle mass but she developed a upper respiratory out of the blue after breeding (we felt it was a reaction to pine in the box), the vet prescribe baytril, it did not work, then clavamox still did not work, the bird it turned out had an enlarged heart that was malfunctioning and was pushing fluid into the lungs. Some things are easy, simple to spot and recommend treatment, others are more complicated and require medical intervention.

[cindy]

also when you hold her do so by placing your index finger on one side of the neck and your pointer finger on the other side of her neck, bend your two fingers over her body like a seat harness (kind of like a secure harness on a roller coaster ride), her back should be placed in the palm of your hand close your other fingers and thumb gently around her body but never firmly or too tight.

I see people holding birds incorrectly with their hand closed around the birds body often to tight, they have lungs and multiple air sacs and if held to tight it will compromise their breathing.