FINCHforum

I'm not sure if I should have put this under breeding, but since the issue is wanting them NOT to breed, I went ahead and put it in Health. Maybe that was wrong. But anyway, here goes.

So Pyewacket, my white female Bengalese, has started laying eggs, gol-dang her.

She laid steadily for 3 or 4 weeks and then SEEMED to have stopped about a month ago. However just before Xmas she started up again. Between then and now she has laid 3 normal eggs and one that seems to have been totally shell-less (early this morning, it was just splatted on the cage bottom under one of the perches).

Last time they were showing mating behavior (its just her and Bambi, my tail-less male fawn) it was enough to cover them at twilight. At that time they were getting a pretty varied diet but the light reduction was sufficient to stop things before any eggs were laid.

I did get a blackout curtain to use as a cover rather than the sheet my son had been using but that had not actually been deployed since she seemed to have stopped. I've already hauled that out and replaced the sheet at this point.

This time, because my son is caring for the birds while I paint and reno (he's had them since June), they have NOT been getting much in the way of treats. They have been getting common parakeet mix as the main feed - that is 2 or 3 types of millet, a small amount of oat groats, and some canary reedgrass seed. There is still some sunflower seed in the cage but they don't bother with it much. They have not been getting egg food regularly for some time.

There is a mineral block (which they do use, finches need a broken place on the block to be able to utilize that, otherwise it is too hard for them). There is a piece of cuttlebone which they USED to use a lot but mostly ignore these days. They have HATCHED! egg shell in one cup and ABBA mineral mix in the other. They used to ignore the HATCHED! But I notice that has been eaten up recently so I'm putting more of that in the cage. They basically went off the cuttlebone when I started supplying them with all the blue stuff they want and they still hit that (the blue ABBA mineral mix) hard.

The get the Sweet Kale mix from Costco every morning. This stuff:

https://www.eatsmart.net/product/sweet- ... salad-kit/

They don't get any of the pumpkin seed as I assume they can't shell it, nor do I give them any of the dried cranberry as I figure there's probably sulfites? Sulfates? Something sulphurous and not good for birds in it. They obviously don't get any of the poppy seed dressing that comes in the kit, LOL!

Actually I'm not sure the pumpkin seed isn't already shelled, in which case I would have decided not to give it to them on the premise that the seed is still too large for them and may have been roasted and salted. I don't remember any more exactly why, but they don't get any of it.

So that leave Kale, cabbage, brocoli (which seems to be shreds of the STALK rather than the flower heads, but they love it anyway), brussels sprouts, and chicory. Right before Xmas I gave them a small amount of arugula (apparently about the same oxalic acid content as chicory, 0.2%) for a couple of days but they've not had any since. They have NOT been getting any spinach for quite some time now.

Kale does have some oxalic acid in it but really very very little - .02%, compared to about 1% for spinach. Here's the break down, oxalic acid-wise:

Kale = 0.02%
Cabbage - 0.1%
broccoli = 0.2%
brussel sprouts = .35%
chicory = 0.2%

There is very little of the Brussel sprouts in the mix and they usually reject it anyway. There is even less chicory in there though they do eat that. They love the shredded broccoli stems. They eat all the kale and most of the cabbage most of the time. None of these have levels of oxalic acid anything near what's in spinach so hopefully the mix is pretty safe. And NOT responsible for the shell-less egg.

They have NOT been getting their vitamin mix regularly for several months now. I've asked my son to go ahead and start putting that in their water all the time again instead of just when I come over once or twice a week to clean the cage. A D3 deficiency is probably not unlikely by now.

Pyewacket does not appear to be stressed in any way at this time. She is cheerful, uses the entirety of the cage, not off her feed. No weird fluffing up or strange breathing. Ditto Bambi, but then he is not the one laying the eggs. He's the one who keeps trying to tear up the cage liner for nesting material, LOL!

There is nothing even remotely nest-like in the cage. There isn't a single feed cup that's large enough to look anything like a nest.

Typically they sleep in the bottom of the cage anyway due to Bambi's tail-less status and the fact that he almost couldn't fly at all when I first got him (he'd been kept in a tiny tiny cage by himself for months due to the other birds in the store plucking his tail feathers, which have never grown back in).

Now that he's a strong flyer again they do sometimes perch instead. Some of the eggs were clearly dropped from a perch (and broken when they hit bottom) but some were likely laid on the ground. She hasn't actually tried to sit them for any length of time even if one goes unnoticed and stays in there for a few days, but she does keep pushing them out.

I feel like I should go back to providing them egg food once or twice a week. They used to get it daily but from June through about Sept were getting it only once or twice a week when I came over to clean the cages. Since then they've only gotten it once or twice in the last 3 or 4 months. I feel like she may be starting to get protein deficient pushing all those eggs out.

I have hopes that going to a blackout curtain will help as it was light reduction that stopped this last time. But maybe it won't.

All told in the last 3 months I think she has laid about 11 - 12 eggs total, possibly as many as 15-16, can't be sure as I've lost count. That's counting the 3 normal + 1 shell-less egg here in the last 10 days or so. I'm pretty sure no MORE than that, but regardless, it can't be good for her.

There is a woman who was keeping societies as foster parents for her gouldians here locally who has been considering giving her societies away as she says her gouldians have been doing fine on their own. I had been thinking I shouldn't take them until I have this under control, but I've been told that societies are less likely to breed in colonies. So perhaps I should go ahead and take them and hope that in and of itself puts a stop to this? They would go into a double flight, which would be a new cage to both her birds and mine. Might that help after all?

Having lost one bird to egg-binding (when both birds in the cage were female to boot) I'm not anxious to lose another. I've considered trying to separate by sex (if I were to take on the Bengalese from the breeder) but I really don't think breaking up bonded pairs is appropriate. Plus, it didn't stop poor Molly Brown from laying herself to death anyway. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe adding lots more pairs to a larger cage would break this sort of thing up. One can hope.

What else can I do to discourage this, or at least minimize her potential health risks while this is still going on?

EDIT: One other thing I should mention. The HVAC where my son lives is not properly balance, result being that in summer the room the birds are in is really really super cold, and in winter it gets warmer than anywhere else in the house. When I was living there, I just kept the vent in that room closed all the time which much reduced the wilder swings in temp. But my son keeps that vent open and it has been SUPER warm in there since cold weather started.

I've closed it again and have asked him to leave it that way. He's been complaining about it being too hot in there anyway. I don't know why it didn't occur to him to just shut the vent, but there you go.

So maybe this could have been caused by high temps that made it seem like summer? And maybe now that it is staying much cooler that will also help to stop this?

Sojourner

Hello and Happy New Year.

I would cut back on light hours, to the regular daylight hours (no light before sunrise, no light after sunset).

Offer hard boiled eggs once a week for now. Extra protein, gets them into breeding mode.

Offer lot's of crushed egg shells for Calcium (she needs that, seeing as she is using all the Calcium out of her body to form the eggs, which is the main cause of egg binding).

I would go into Finch seed, instead of Parakeet mix, with a bit of added Canary seed.

For greens, you can buy the Baby Spring Mix containers, which offer a variety of different greens ( a container is reletively inexpensive and lasts for quite some time in the fridge).

If nothing else works, offer her a nest with some infertile eggs (or fake eggs) and let her sit on them. That way, she will at least get a break from egg laying for a couple of weeks, which may stop this cycle.

Good luck

Thanks so much for responding.

Right now they ARE on "natural" day light or maybe a bit less as they are covered at night by twilight. If that is the issue, maybe the blackout curtain will help.

They've got access to 4 different calcium sources and I know for sure she hits at least one of those HEAVILY and I suspect at least two of them - the ABBA mix for sure, and probably the HATCHED! as well though I've not seen her at that cup yet, but I'm only around when I'm cleaning the cage. Since it is now disappearing I assume she is eating it.

I don't offer "finch" seed because they won't eat it. Ditto canary seed. But I will start offering it in treat cups if you think it will help. They will leave all the dark seeds such as rape seed and the flat dark oily seeds like flax. Maybe she'll eat some of the other seeds now, as long as they won't encourage the egg laying. Given they have always left everything specific to finch mix, maybe it won't make any difference if she still picks over them.

I had feared that those seeds might trigger MORE, rather than less breeding. I haven't been offering any extra "treats" because I have been told in the past that when a diet is "too rich" that will ENCOURAGE breeding which is the opposite of what I would like to see, LOL!

But I'll get some finch seed and put it in treat cups and see what happens.

I had considered fake eggs and a nest, but that may be beyond the ability of my son to keep up with on a daily basis. Plus - I had a link for where to find proper finch-size fake eggs and now I can't find it. Do you know where I can get fake finch eggs of the proper size? These are Bengalese AKA society finches - are their eggs about the same size as Zebras?

If fake eggs are the right way to go - he'll need to check the nest every morning for new "real" eggs and replace them with a fake egg until there are about 6 in there, right? Or until she stops laying fresh eggs actually, which should be around 6 to 8? Then just let her sit them? I would guess I should use a canary nest so there is easy access to the eggs? Should I provide nesting material - would timothy hay do? I think I have that on hand.

Is there something wrong with their current greens mix?

I don't know where to get the one you suggest, plus it has spinach in it which is VERY high in oxalic acid. Oxalic acid binds calcium, as I understand it, and can lead to egg binding. I haven't checked the rest of the ingredients but I am TERRIFIED of egg binding and I am convinced that the fact that I used to let them absolutely STUFF themselves with spinach had a lot to do with Molly's egg-binding. I almost never offer them any spinach at all since losing Molly.

Probably a leaf or two is all they would get out of that mix which is far far from the problem with letting them stuff themselves on spinach, but that one shell-less egg DOES have me worried. Sorry to be such a worry wart. If you would share where to find that, I'll offer it if you think it will help.

I'm hoping that it being too warm in there was part of the problem, and having shut the vent so it stays cooler might help.

They won't eat actual hardboiled egg, but they do eat the Cece dry egg food as long as it is still dry. Shall I offer that once a week?

Again, thanks so much for the response. I swear, my mother used to work so hard to get them to lay - and here I am desperately trying to get them to STOP! LOL!

Sojourner

There are several places where you can get fake eggs.
This happened to be the first one I clicked on...

http://www.theeggshop.com/

Not sure I understand.
Who is caring for the birds now? Last I remember, it was Mom looking after the birds....
Are they back with you now, or is your son caring for them?

There is nothing wrong with the greens which you offer. I simply like to offer more variety. Yes, the Baby Spring Mix, has spinach in it.
It's just a suggestion. I use it quite often, along with kale, cucumber, romaine, beet greens, grated carrots, broccoli, corn on the cob, chopped sweet peppers, mixed frozen veggies, parsley, red swiss chard, rapini, grated beet, and whatever else looks good and fresh.

I also offer chopped apple, orange slices, halved grapes, banana, bits of melon, etc.
Different birds like different things, so these are just suggestions.

Reg. the temperature.
I usually keep the house at somewhere between 18C and 20C.
If I have birds who are under the weather, or if it feels too cool in the bird room, I'll add a small electric heater/fan and bring the temps up to 23 or there abouts. When I was breeding I'd hike the temps up to between 23 to 25, and bring up the humidity.

I'd offer the egg food once or twice a week, until she gets out of this laying cycle, but def keep the calcium coming.

Thanks.

The birds are with my son and have been since I bought a house in June that I've been reno-ing. It wasn't supposed to take this long but I am disabled and hurt my back. Having to pay to have the painting finished.

18C to 20C is 64F to 68F and I guarantee it has been a LOT hotter than that in that room before I closed the vent. Like 80F at least. That would be 27C.

She laid a normal egg this morning. Apparently what she did before is called a "rubber egg" in chickens and is apparently not necessarily a sign of much of anything, its just something that happens from time to time. Deformed eggs are something different yet again but all her eggs but the one rubber egg have been normal.

This is the High Sierra Desert region so humidity is super low. You know, desert and all. We're in our "rainy" season now (we get about 2/3rds of our total of 7" of rain per year in the winter) but its still dry.

Thanks so much for your continued assistance. I have been absolutely paranoid about another egg binding incident since I lost poor Molly Brown.

I know its totally irrational, but I can't shake the feeling that I never should have named her after my mother's canary, who ALSO was lost to egg binding when my mother couldn't get her to stop laying eggs.

I like the little brown birds - Bengalese, Owls, etc - none of which are sexually dimorphic. There aren't any breeders around here that I know of except the one lady who breeds Gouldians or I'd be hunting a breeder who DNA tests their birds so I could get all males, LOL!

Can't thank you enough.

lovezebs, I agree with the fake egg plan. They can lay 4-5 eggs a week for a long while. At least if they sit on fake eggs they'll lay a lot less eggs per month.