FINCHforum

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:21 am**

Hi, new here...nice to meet y'all.
I feel terrible. Everything was going great with a pair of 10 day old Gouldians that I have been hand feeding since birth. (parents tossed them)
I think they are going to die though. All was good at last feeding at around 9 pm. I had turned off the heating pad by accident and when I went in to check them again around midnight they look terrible.
They were cool and listless and are not begging at all. I noticed a bit of foam in their mouths and they were breathing slow with a click. I am not sure if they aspirated with the last feeding since I hear the click. I warmed them up, turned on the heating pad and they are breathing more normal, clicking is gone BUT they are still listless and the one that did BRIEFLY open its mouth for a moment still appears to have this thick mucus or foam in the back of its throat. I know its crop SHOULD be empty but it appears to have something in it...since they are getting older and the skin is darkening, it is hard to tell if it is air or food (it was prone to air in its crop) The others crop is empty and it is NOT begging at all.

I feel terrible! I was feeding with a toothpick and the eyes were just opening...
any ideas????

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:47 am**

Welcome to the forum. I really wish that I had an answer, but so far I have never hand fed. I do hope that your babies are doing better this morning and that someone has an answer for you soon.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:24 am**

Well, they did both pass away in the night.
The strangest part is that it appears that the crops looked full this AM.

I almost looked as though there was blood in their crops.
What could it have been???

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:36 am**

Crops do have a very red vein running through them - don't mistake that for blood however. I don't know what may have happened but want to say I'm sorry you lost them.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:45 am**

Very sorry for your loss.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:26 am**

Thank you all. No, I know the vein...this was entirely red and swollen. When I first discovered that the heating pad was off the crops looked almost empty since they were due to eat again. The crop definitely got bigger during the course of whatever that happened.
I wonder if it could have been canker???

They were doing alot of swallowing as if trying to swallow the thick mucus in their throats. and the smaller baby would try and hold its head like if was stretching it up but then looking down...like the way the penguins on Happy Feet...am I making ANY sense???

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Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:03 am**

Sounds like yeast..

Yeast is a prevalent problem in pretty much all handfed babies.

I think the major problem was probably the heating pad being turned off.
When they cool down like that, they usually can't/don't digest their food properly, which would explain why it wasn't emptying out of the crop.
Food not emptying just exacerbates any existing candida (aka yeast, aka thrush, aka sour crop) problems, and can also cause them if they aren't there already.

Although aspiration isn't ruled out - it's impossible to know exactly what it was - I would bet more money on yeast + getting chilled as the culprit to them passing away.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:04 am**

Sorry for your loss especialy after the initial success. I have hand fed also and it is tough to know what goes wrong sometimes.
I agree with Tiffany, probably a combination of yeast and too cold of temperature. Nest time if there is one, when small feed smaller more often food. Make sure food stays warm and chicks stay warm. Some suggest adding applesauce to the formula to inhibit the yeast, though I have bnever done this.
If it is any consolation, I hand feed chicks the exact same way everytime. 90% survive but that 10% never do. Sometimes I wonder if those same individuals would of survived with thier bird parents. Sometimes things just aren't meant to be.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:42 pm**

CandoAviary wrote:Sorry for your loss especialy after the initial success. I have hand fed also and it is tough to know what goes wrong sometimes.
I agree with Tiffany, probably a combination of yeast and too cold of temperature. Nest time if there is one, when small feed smaller more often food. Make sure food stays warm and chicks stay warm. Some suggest adding applesauce to the formula to inhibit the yeast, though I have bnever done this.
If it is any consolation, I hand feed chicks the exact same way everytime. 90% survive but that 10% never do. Sometimes I wonder if those same individuals would of survived with thier bird parents. Sometimes things just aren't meant to be.

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Hi... I am sorry for your loss.

I have never hand fed finches but have done day old parrotlets and lovebirds. Before there was handfeeding formula I used to make my own (no I am not ancient) and it contained applesauce along with rice baby cereal, soaked softened monkey chow biscuits, unsweeten applesauce, honey, petamine (very young chicks only take the powdered part not the seeds) and wheat germ add to hot water and cool to the temp you need to feed at. I never use a syrine but a silver (metal) baby spoon bent to form a fine v out of the tip.

Feeding newborns is always tricky, some chicks handle formula fine others need it adjusted. I know several breeders of hookbills, including myself at one time that use applesauce even pumpkin puree as the chick gets a little bigger. (pumpkin puree is excellent to give to a chick that is ill, you add a little to the handfeeding formula) If you ever choose to use applesauce, use unsweeten plain, you can use the organic. Some of the breeders I know use it all the time right from the start, they say it keeps the crop from getting impacted.

I am also inclined to say what happened to your chicks sounds like a yeast problem. A friend of mine had me feed out some baby parrotlets for him, he had brought over an incubator for me. Things were going fine, the babies were thriving. Unfortunately we had a storm come through, we lost our power for hours and it shorted the incubator out during the night. Something made me get up early, I noticed we had no power. I checked the chicks (not fully feathered) they were cold.

The power outage must have happened shortly after the last nightly feeding since the crops looked full. I warmed them in my hands and a towel close to my chest as I boiled rice to fill plastic bags then wrapped the bags in faceclothes to act as a warmer.

Something odd happened the babies had a foam similiar to what you described coming from their mouth, they would stretch their necks out straight, as they lowered their necks they swayed their heads in a wavey motion then dropped the heads. They could not upright themselves. I called my friend and he said to try to feed warm water (temp used to feed at) with a little apple sauce diluted in it to try to make the food in the crop pass.

Two of the littlest ones passed away, the other 3 pulled through. My friend took the bodies to the vet and she confirmed yeast, the heater failing caused the babies to not be able empty their crops properly.

It is sad to loose such little ones. I hope you are ok.

My thoughts are with you.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:17 pm**

Thanks so much for all your kind words.
I am glad I found this forum.
I will post a bit about me and other issues on another thread and maybe get some more great info and input.
Thanks again for your great info. Maybe if there is a next time I will do better.
I took out all nest boxes and am giving all a break.
Except for a new pair of societies that I got the day these babies hatched...might as well give them some practice so they can foster...don't want to go through this again!

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:47 pm**

So sorry for your loss, carmena. It is difficult to handfeed, and it doesn't take much to lose these babies, they are so fragile.

Be sure and post in the Introduction section and tell us more about yourself and your birds.

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