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[batuhan]

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[L in Ontario]

We could have quite a debate on this but overall I think we all try to do the best we can for our birds. Some cannot have birds outdoors due to nature itself (weather conditions). Medicines, vitamins etcetera are sometimes necessary and wonderful if used properly; obviously if not necessary - should not be used.

Thanks for sharing your list!

[cindy]

I agree with Liz. To be honest you have brought this topic up several times in separate threads and not to be rude but the response is always the same.

For instance the issue on pellets...argued to death. Some use it some don't, some use it with seed some don't. Some use it alone without seeds as discussed previously in other threads. By the way I have not known a bird to die from pellets (as you claimed in a previous thread) unless that was the only food provided, it refused it and died from starvation. Not happening here.

The issue with keeping our birds outside...some of us can't. So the issue of sunshine for some is out of the question so we make due with special lighting and added minerals and vitamins our foods supply.

The issue with serving live food some of use do, some of us don't.

The issue of using medicines some, most believe in it and it has saved their birds from agony, further illness and even death. It is a must in cases involving yeast, parasites, bacteria etc.

Making our own food, some of us do not have the time and it is easier to bring foods in rather than grow or take from nature which some of us can not.

The issue with sunshine and medicines...ok some of the parasites the birds can get thrive in the sun and survive in the winter, the only possible way to heal them is to disinfect and treat the birds with medications.

Bottom line is we each love our birds and we do what we can for them within our limits whether it be with foods, environment, medicines and care.

You believe in your way and I can respect that but realistically your way will not work for everyone. Each of us may take a little portion of what you do and use it but eventually in the end we all do what we deem fit for our birds.

[Meagan83]

Although I understand your views, Batuhan, I'm in agreement with Liz and Cindy.

[nixity]

Even with the best of conditions the health of your birds will not always be perfect regardless of what you are providing them.

If my dog gets a case of conjunctivitis because she is exposed at the dog park, despite being perfectly healthy, should I deny her medical treatment because it's "not natural"?

I think everyone here would argue no.

For the same reason I take medicine if I am sick, I keep medicines on hand for my birds if one goes under the weather for some reason.

Some do not feel that conventional medicines are necessary - but please remember that herbal medicines are not always cut and dry and you need to be knowledgeable in their uses and applications or have someone who is willing and able to guide you if you intend to go this route to try to treat something. Not everyone has this luxury.

Oftentimes you also don't always have the time - when a finch starts showing signs of serious illness it can often be late to even act to save it because of how well they hide symptoms.

It is approximately 25 degrees outside with about 5' of snow on the ground - keeping my birds outside is not only inconceivable but I would ultimately be putting them more at risk this way than keeping them in the comforts of my home.
I also can count on both hands the number of times I have seen threads regarding outdoor aviaries and predation by rats, snakes, hawks, issues with disease, etc.

Keeping your birds outdoors exposes them to a whole gamut of diseases they ordinarily wouldn't be exposed to indoors, too.
So you're taking chances either way, but personally, I'd rather keep mine indoors and avoid things like feather mites and mycoplasma and worms and getting eating by rats and raccoons and and..

I think one thing we can agree on is that most people have joined this forum because they do genuinely wish to provide the absolute best for their birds.
Let's try to remember that what works for Person A, while ultimately valid, may not work for Person B.

[cindy]

Well said Tiffany.

[dfcauley]

:vitamins and antibiotics are very important for the birds;if you want them to be ill, give your birds plenty of drugs...

I am going to agree with everyone else here. I do not think that we are "trying" to kill our birds with vitamins and antibiotics. I also feel that they have certain benefits at the proper time. The important thing is to remember to not overdo them.

Thank you for your advice, but I am sure I will continue to give my birds whatever they need if they are sick. Whatever that may be. We all have their good health in our minds at all times.

[Sally]

I have invited batuhan to repost his/her original post that started this discussion. Discussion is always good on the forum, we can certainly learn from it. We just have to remember that we all have to work out our own program with what works for us--it doesn't mean anyone else's program is wrong, just different.

[JohnBoy]

Well said Tiffany.

Ditto

[Mannikin_luver]

Well said everyone! I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but I would like to add that when you state a opinion be prepared for those who both agree and disagree and instead of getting mad because not everyone agrees, calmly explain your point of view and leave it at that, those that want to take your advice will and those that wont, will not. I personally love everything I can learn and try to apply to the best of my ability everything I learn here, it is a wonderful plethora of knowledge!

[cindy]

Good outlook on things!

In regards to the opening post on this thread (no longer there): To make a blanket statement about something without proof is sort of like fuel for a fire. There will be debates no doubt.

Not everyone has the same approach to things in regards to finches/birds. There is so much to consider such as environment, space, affordability, the amount of birds one has, time, not enough time, foods that are easy or one can have the time to cook and prepare foods and so on. What works well for one person may not work for someone else.

It is called choice and all we get the benifit from taking bits and pieces from others' ways, maybe they will work for us or maybe they won't.

[batuhan]

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[Mannikin_luver]

I believe your english is perfectly fine and you did a fine job explaining, as I understand your point, but...

Most people here i believe follow up antibiotics with probiotics which in fact restores the gut flora that is normally killed off by the use of antibiotics. So anything lost, is restored. Also finches are very small birds and unlike humans at times do not recover no matter what we do because there little bodies can't handle the disease or infection, as well as they are good at hiding it until sometimes it is to late.

Also, I would like to add that when it is a birds time to go, however there are exceptions, but I believe it is just there time to go and no matter whether you gave them a all natural diet with herbal remedies or if you gave them manufactured medicine and a fortified seed diet, you can never prevent death. In fact all you can do is give them the best life possible by whatever means you feel are right and necessary.

[cindy]

Batuhan,

I am pretty sure none of use use medicines for the sake of just using it. We use it if the birds become ill, to treat a disease, to prevent a disease or worse. Using medicines without an illness present will results in the antibiotic not working when it is really needed, the body becomes resistant to it.

Sometimes in certain cases even though a disease is viral it can have underlying bacterial secondary diseases that must be treated/prevented since it is the secondary illness that can kill the bird in some cases. An example is Parrot Beak and Feather Disease. It is viral but can cause secondary infections in the lungs like pneumonia. The pneumonia will kill a bird faster than the virus will. So medicine/antibiotics as a preventive is a must in cases like this. When the disease has passed then you work on building the immune system back up with probiotics and good foods, warmth.

You sound passionate about your birds, we all are. You may have access to more of a "natural" way than some of us have. Some of us live in the city, some in the country. Some work some don't...our life styles may be different from yours.

Another thing, just some friendly advice, making a blanket statement like "pellet equals death" will get you into a debate with many of us...especially me!

There is a wide range of quality pellets available. Harrison, Roudybush, Zupreem, Pretty Bird all make quality bird pellets that have been researched and scientifically balanced to give our birds what they need. You can pull up their websites on your computer and research them to see the work that went into creating them. Harrisons and Roudybush are good ones to read about.

I recently found a site on pellets they use for zoo exotics, some include dried insects. By the way, feeding pellets alone will not equal death as you claim. Zoos have been doing this for years, not just with birds but with animals. It is a way to ensure the creature gets the vitamins, minerals and supplements it needs. They also give fresh fruit, meat and veggies. We try to do the same here with our birds.

We can never come close to the wild diets since some of us do not have all the resources availble to match the ingredients found in the wild. Sometimes we need to depend on pellets, liquid supplements, dried egg foods opposed to whole eggs, dried insects vs live. We do what we need to do to give our birds what we can within our limits and resourses.

Your topic has been debated in other threads but I hope this thread has helped you to understand we all are raising healthy birds. Yes we do occassionally loose a bird and some get sick, there may be underlying causes that we are just unable to perdict no matter how well we care for our birds. It happens, it is sad. But for the most part everyone on the forum is doing the best that they can, we continue to learn from others...and in the end we do what works best for us and our birds.

[mickp]

I think one thing we can agree on is that most people have joined this forum because they do genuinely wish to provide the absolute best for their birds.
Let's try to remember that what works for Person A, while ultimately valid, may not work for Person B.

I dont think that anyone could say that any better