Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

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Stephanie
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Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by Stephanie » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:43 am

I have some 'dead in the nest' finch babies that are attracting flies :( . The environment is sure to kill the remaining two babies quite quickly. Is there anything viable I can do? Unfortunately they are in a cane/wicker nest, so it's hard to get them out. If I'm going to interfere, I will need to have a good plan.

Has anyone navigated a similar situation successfully? The babies are about 13 days old.

Thanks.
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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by MiaCarter » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:10 am

Stephanie - Aw, I'm sorry to hear about this situation.

I can definitely help as I've removed lots of babies from hooded wicker nests.

Yes, you'll definitely want to remove the dead babies.

If they were small, you could have used tweezers to remove them. But now they're larger and it will be very difficult. It's tough even when they're small as it's often just a mass of body and it's hard to tell who's attached to what.

So here's what to do:
Remove the entire nest from the cage.
Get a spoon. I use plastic spoons from fast food restaurants since they're individually packaged and clean. The plastic is good because it's not cold. If you don't have plastic, just warm a metal spoon in your hands.

Wash everything - your hands, the spoon, etc.

Put out a paper towel on a table.

Place the spoon inside the nest and position it beside one of the babies. Tilt the nest so the baby rolls into the spoon.

Give him a second to settle into the spoon, then pull him out while sitting in the spoon and place him on the paper towel.

Repeat to remove the second one.

Now, remove the dead babies. You can use tweezers or a chopstick. They may be stuck to the nesting.

How old were they when they died? I'm guessing they were a bit older - beyond 3-4 days - since they're attracting flies. Usually if they're super small (4 days and under) they just dry up.
I think there's a high chance that bacteria-ridden body fluids have escaped from them. And that permeates the surrounding nesting. So remove the top 1-2 layers of nesting. (I use paper towels and toilet paper bits for nesting, so it's easy to see if it's clean or soiled. It's a bit more challenging with all natural materials like hay and grasses.)

I would have some additional fresh nesting handy in case you need to remove more than expected.
I always put the new nesting on the bottom and put a layer of the old (but clean) nesting on top.

Then, once the nest is clean, it's time to replace the babies. Put the spoon beside a baby and lift the edge of the paper towel to tilt him into the spoon. Let him settle and put him into the nest. Ideally, when returning him to the nest, position the baby so he's facing you and the spoon handle, so he goes into the nest bum first. Otherwise, they may extend their wings, making it difficult to get them back inside.

It may be a challenge to get them out of the nest, so just be prepared for it. Just be gentle and let them settle. That's key - giving them a second to settle in the spoon. If you try to remove the spoon with the baby too soon, you end up with legs and wings sticking out.

I've handled lots of babies and I've never had any problems, including in cases where I had to replace bits of nesting. There is a risk any time you mess with a nest, but usually, they're just fine.

Make sure any other birds or pets are put away when you do this. I've had my cockatiel go after babies.

It can help to have someone else to hold the nest and a flash light while you're working inside it. Or prop up the nest between two heavy objects (I use book ends.) I use a head lamp when doing it myself.

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes!
Humum to....
13 Zebra Finches....and 2 squeeps!
3 Society Finches
6 Gouldians
1 Weaver
1 Pintail Whydah
2 Cockatiels
2 Parakeets

....along with 1 MinPin, 1 Pug, 1 JRT, 1 Yorkie, 2 Chihuahuas and 15 cats.


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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by Stephanie » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:39 am

Mia, thank you so much for that brilliant set of instructions. What a star you are! I could not have asked for more.

Maddeningly, by the time I asked the question, turns out I was too late. I just went up to the aviary and the parents have emptied the nest of dead babies and the remaining live baby. The crop of the live one is packed so absurdly full that I know something is very wrong there too. There's also a small gas bubble under the skin of his abdomen. He has no chance.

What causes this issue? I have kept finches for 9 years but only in the past 18 months have I seen whole-clutch Gouldian deaths in the nest like this. It's my fourth or fifth case in 18 months (and breeding result in general have been very poor), compared with zero cases in the 7.5 years prior. The babies are generally around the same age - 12-14 days.
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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by debbie276 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:06 am

What causes this issue? I have kept finches for 9 years but only in the past 18 months have I seen whole-clutch Gouldian deaths in the nest like this. It's my fourth or fifth case in 18 months (and breeding result in general have been very poor), compared with zero cases in the 7.5 years prior. The babies are generally around the same age - 12-14 days.
Do you happen to have society finch? One if the diseases that they carry, Campylobacter is deadly to gouldians causing nestlings to die usually around 10-14 days old.

Just a thought
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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by MiaCarter » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:27 am

Aw, I'm so sorry to hear about the babies.

What did you do with the remaining survivor? He may look bad, but don't give up on him if he's still alive!

I might even try to replace him in the nest and monitor closely to see if the parents care for him. As I mentioned, it's hard to tell who's attached to what - it's just a mass of baby bits in there, so it's possible they tossed him accidentally while trying to remove the dead babies.

On the over-full crop....was this always the case? I ask because cooling can cause crop stasis, but they may still beg. So it's possible the over-packed crop was due to him being fed while he was outside of the nest and chilled.

@debbie276 has it exactly right (as usual! LOL)
That's the right age for the babies to die if they're impacted by campylobacter.

Cochlosoma is another possibility, especially if his droppings look abnormal.
I think those two illnesses are the most likely culprit; hard to be more definitive though without knowing his other symptoms.

Another option could be a crop yeast infection, which also kills around this timeframe, sometimes a bit later depending on when the baby developed the infection. It usually causes a failure to thrive, slow crop emptying, a distinct yellow tone to the crop skin, with visible veining and some redness around the crop.

If he's still alive and you have meds on-hand, I would treat for campylobacter,. protozoal bugs and yeast infection. (Especially for the latter because some of the antibiotic meds can cause them to develop a yeast infection if they didn't have one already!)

Camphylobacter can be treated with doxycycline or erythromycin. (And giving an anti-fungal like nystatin is mandatory in a baby, as they'll almost certainly develop a fungal infection while on antibiotics.)

Cochlosoma is a protozoal bug that can be treated with RonivetS/Ronex.

Assuming he's still alive, I would evaluate his symptoms and see which condition best fits his symptoms and treat accordingly. I believe you could safely treat for both which may be a good course if you're uncertain.
It's not ideal to toss medications at him, hoping that one will cure him. But at this point, it sounds like he's going to die if you do nothing.
Humum to....
13 Zebra Finches....and 2 squeeps!
3 Society Finches
6 Gouldians
1 Weaver
1 Pintail Whydah
2 Cockatiels
2 Parakeets

....along with 1 MinPin, 1 Pug, 1 JRT, 1 Yorkie, 2 Chihuahuas and 15 cats.


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www.PetFinchFacts.com

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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by debbie276 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:42 am

With Cochlosoma they usually die shortly before fledging, after fledging or just simply fail to thrive and die before weaning. So I wouldn't think it's necessarily Cochlosoma.

Sure hope you can figure out what's going through your flock.
Debbie
long time breeder of lady gouldians:
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by cindy » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:12 pm

With Ronivet/Ronex both need to be 12% if you can't find the 12% you can use 6% and double the powder to one part water.

With the parasites and protozoa Mia mentioned you can have secondary yeast... when you use the ronex or ronivet you can also add ACV. Treatment dose is 2 tablespoons per gallon... you can use 1 1/2 if the birds do not drink it. You can mix the ACV right in the Ronex/Ronivet. The organic ACV will keep the yeast in check, yeast is very opportunistic and usually grows when there is disease/issues. it will clog the digestive system, making it difficult for food to digest. The bird will go thin. I use organic ACV in my water when breeding/parents are feeding young.

Babies getting chilled can also effect digestion which can also cause yeast. Your seasons are opposite ours are you warm or is it still cold there?

Coccidia is another that will take young quickly, they usually pass early or just after fledging, they are usually very thin, legs are spindly/thin, bird is dehydrated looking... Trimethoprim/sulfa powder can be used for this... it can also be mixed with ACV.

At times one of the ladies on our group that sells and helps with illness issues has recommended mixing Ronex or ronivet with ACV and the tri-sulfa for certain illnesses/issues.

The parents might be carrying something and passing it along to the young.

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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by cindy » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:39 pm


Zebra, Gouldians, Java, CBM Shaft tail & Grasskeets


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Re: Babies dead in wicker nest - what to do for others?

Post by Derk » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:37 am

Stephanie
So sorry for your losses but thank-you for posting. That was a lot of great information to read! Thanks all for the replies.
************************
Mary

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gold-breasted waxbill 2 pr
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