BCCB and RCCB cross?

[Snow finch]

hello friends quick question.
i am in search of a female BCCB and i was at a pet store the other day and they happen to have a single female cordon blue. They did not know the sub species, i mentioned i had a male blue capped so i think the lady just assumed thats what her female was.. the more i looked at her the more i think she was a RCCB. I did not buy her and dont really plan it but i was also interested in knowing what would happen if you crossed these sub species. Good! bad! any thoughts.....

[Sally]

You will get fertile hybrids if you cross BCCB and RCCB, since they are very closely related. They are not actually subspecies, they are each individual species. It is preferable not to cross these two species, since the hens of both species are very similar, and can be mistaken for pure.

I once got a pair of BCCBs from a friend, and I suspected that the hen was RCCB. I let them breed, and sure enough, I got two males that soon showed red cheek patches, though the patches were much smaller and less vibrant than normal. The two hens from this breeding would have been very difficult to tell from pure hens, especially for those who aren't very familiar with CBs. I did sell the two males to a woman who just wanted two male pets, no breeding, with the understanding that they should never be bred. I kept the hens, since others would not be able to tell they were hybrids, and they lived out their lives without ever being bred.

I was warned some years ago that CB hybrids were being sold at a local flea market. I was told that those breeders didn't care what they had, whether BCCB or RCCB, all they wanted was babies to sell. For that reason, I only buy CBs from people I trust, or I get wild-caught imports.

[Snow finch]

Wow I didn't know that thanks. Was your origanal hen a hybrid or was she just pure rccb? It sounds like to me you would be able to tell on the males but maybe not so much on the females.

[Sally]

Snow finch I'm pretty sure my original hen was pure, though she could have been a hybrid, perhaps originally from that flea market? It is sometimes fairly easy to tell BCCB and RCCB hens apart, if you have looked at quite a few, but hybrids would be difficult to detect. I was pretty sure that hen was RCCB, and should have followed my instincts. Breeding her proved that I was right. Male hybrids should be easy to see. The cheek patch on my males was so telling, quite a bit smaller than normal, not as vivid coloring, just looked poor. Pure RCCBs have this large bright red cheek patch.

[Snow finch]

you by chance dont have a picture do you? i know i dont take pictures of all my birds but just wondering.

[monotwine]

Snow finch The hens are difficult to tell apart, but not impossible.
You can see it in stance and usually the amount of fuchsia in the beak.

If you google it a bit I know one one of the Australian sites / maybe this one, they did post pics of the two.
It is critical, now more than ever that finch keepers become savy about not mixing the CB species. If there is another ban on African imports, then the stock of CB's currently in aviculture is all we have to breed and keep the species. Hybrids muddle gene pools and in general just become dud birds nobody wants.
Good on you for suspecting and asking at least.

[Sally]

Wow I didn't know that thanks. Was your origanal hen a hybrid or was she just pure rccb? It sounds like to me you would be able to tell on the males but maybe not so much on the females.

I don't think I ever took photos of those hybrids, I should have. I lost many of my photos in a computer crash, too.

[Sally]

As monotwine has said, hens are not impossible to ID if you know what to look for. Blue-capped hens tend to have a slightly more rounded body, tend to stand up more straight, and have very fuchsia beaks. Red-cheeked hens are built slightly slimmer in the body, perch with a more forward-leaning stance, and usually will have a longer, more pointy, and black-tipped beak. Blue-breasted hens will have a silvery beak.

Cocks are easy to ID, as the Blue-caps are the only ones with a full head of blue, Red-cheeks have the distinctive red cheek patch, and Blue-breasted are brown on the top of the head, silvery beak, deep blue breast.

This site has photos of all three cocks and hens, except that there is not a photo of a Blue-breasted hen.

http://www.finchinfo.com/birds/finches/ ... axbill.php

[Derk]

Sally
Another timely post during my search for a third blue capped female. You had me worried, but it also appears the red-cheeked hens have brown on their heads that reaches their beaks whereas the blue capped females look much like the males but a duller blue. Correct? I will note the info about beak colour but I think I am going to just hope their are not a lot of hybrids around here. Hybrids are bad enough, but when they are also fertile and not mules...

[Derk]

Sally
hmmm just relooked at the pictures. Looks like the blue capped hens also have brown extending to their beaks. Now I need to have a really good look at my hens. I try and post back later today or tomorrow.

[Sally]

Derk If you can post a photo of your hen, I can often tell the difference between BCCB and RCCB hens. Hybrids are almost impossible to spot, but they aren't as prevalent as you might think. There are areas in the country where there are more problems. Florida has a large number of bird breeders, and unfortunately, not all are honest. We have a smaller problem in the DFW Texas area, because we have a huge flea market. There are a few bird traders there, some good, some not so good, which is why I try to be careful where I buy my birds locally.

[Derk]

Sally
Hi Sally. Thank-you for your offer. My problem is my camera cannot load onto the internet and I do not have a cell phone. This is definitely becoming inconvenient. I have tried to borrow a friends camera but things kept getting in the way. I had a good look at the bodies of my 3 male and 2 female BCCB and they look the same. The beaks also match. They all have a tiny bit of dark colour black or brown? at the very edge near the front as well as the point. I don't have a female RCCB to compare to and I forgot to look at the RCCB beak. I'll do that after I finish on the forum.

I could be wrong but looking at a lot of pictures in profile it seems the blue caps may have a rounder head or the red cheeks tend to extend their necks a lot narrowing their throat and giving the appearance of a more elongated head.

Whatever I have the males and female beaks look the same to me. Worse case scenario I guess I breed them, which I know is not easy, and see what they produce. I really like these birds so if they produced anything with a red cheek I would just keep them all. I have had finches for just over 4 years and have yet to sell or give any away. So I am not sure I could sell any of the CB anyway.

[Sally]

Derk I would encourage you to try to breed them. They are a challenge, they will try your patience, but it is sooo rewarding when you have success. I just love the CBs, they are so beautiful, and they have a lovely song.

[Snow finch]

I have great respect for those who can successfully raise a clutch of cordon blues. I have come close so many times only to walk away broken hearted its deffinantly a challenge worth trying. We need all the home grown waxbills we can get around here

[Spreckles]

Oh dear I have no idea WHAT I have currently and my pics are hard to see. I thought I Had a RC CB male because that's what I was told because this bird sings and trills and has very cute vocalizations. It is a slender bird with a silvery brown beak with a reddish spot on top. Brown head blue breast some brown tail feathers. Ordered female RC CB as companions for this bird. The bird is OLD going on 8 yrs!!! I know this bird is too old to breed. Are the Blue headed CB more desirable? Also what is the average life span? I ordered from an online source in Washington. After reading this forum I was such a bundle of nerves I tried to cancel my order but they don't do refunds. Still don't know if I got it right. We have NO breeders in my state. The only available finches are zebras and Pied Society. My current bird was bonded to a red finch that died. Bought a PS and they are ok together but the Blue likes to cuddle and preen and the PS keeps it's distance.