Second clutch before first has fledged? (Gouldian)

[hanabi]

Well it seems I am in need of further advice from our esteemed finch veterans.

I've previously written extensively about the first breeding attempt of my first Gouldian pair. Mum and dad happen to be a single pair in a largish flight with no less than five nest boxes; I had planned to have another pair with them but decided to give them some privacy to increase the chances of success with their first clutch. Fast forward to today and they have four healthy chicks very close to fledging.

A few days ago I noticed the two parents behaving differently. They were more active in the flight and spending a little less time in the nest feeding their offspring (although the chicks still appear to be well fed). I then noticed both the cock and hen looking inside the other empty nest boxes. Ummm, looks like they want to start another clutch already. And this is where my lack of experience has me questioning whether this is a good thing or not . Common sense tells me the parents shouldn't be starting a new clutch while they still have unfledged chicks in the nest. If they start brooding too soon who will be feeding the fledglings? But perhaps my "common sense" is nonsense in the case of Gouldians (and finches in general).

So, should I be worried? Should I remove all the nesting material and cover the entrances of the nesting boxes? Should I stop feeding egg food until the chicks are close to weaned? Or is it normal/safe to start a second clutch while successfully raise fledglings? How many days/weeks after chicks have fledged should the parents wait before starting another clutch?

As always, thanks in advance for any advice you may have.

Ross

[lovezebs]

hanabi

If I were you Ross, I would remove nesting materials and other nests.

Your chicks are still too young to fend for themselves, and this is a young couple. I'd be worried that parents might stop feeding chicks to concentrate on a new clutch.
If they were close to being weaned, that would be a different story, because Dad could finish weaning them, while Mom sat tight on the new eggs. At this stage, (if parents would tolerate the weanies) in the nest, it is a wonderful opportunity for the youngsters to learn how to parent chicks (their own tiny siblings).

My Tiny and Sharra, last season kept starting new clutches about half way through weaning their previous clutch. Kids were still sleeping in the nest at night, so I didn't want to pull the nest box. Parents were excellent at feeding the kids, but here were these new eggs. Drove me nuts.

Finally, after eleven babies, I pulled the plug on clutch #4. I blocked off the nest box, and removed any eggs that were layed on cage floor. Shortly thereafter, I moved both parents and kids into a large community flight and that put an end to that season for them.

[ac12]

While they could raise the chicks to fledging and weaning with a new clutch started, I personally would not allow that. The reason is that I want to give the chicks the greatest chances of survival. Live chicks are more important than unhatched eggs. That means removing things that may distract the parents from caring for the chicks. In my case, birds are bred in individual breeding cages with ONE nest. As soon as the chicks fledge, I remove the nest, so that there is no place to start another clutch.

If they lay eggs in the nest before the chicks fledge, I might remove the eggs, depending on the disturbance risk to the chicks. The closer to fledging date, the less likely I would disturb the chicks. Though I do not recall that I had this situation. If I left the eggs in the nest, when the chicks fledged, I would remove the nest and move the eggs to societies to hatch and raise.

[hanabi]

lovezebs

ac12

Thanks for the prompt replies. Ok we have a consensus I taped up all "vacant" nest box entrances, much to the disgust of the hen and cock. Sorry guys. And I removed the egg food so hopefully that will "soothe" the hen's hormones over time. I'll be sure to follow this procedure in the future too; I think I have learnt a very valuable lesson today.

I'll also keep my eyes open for new eggs; I have some societies all warmed up and ready to go for those.

Cheers.

[Smurf]

If the current chicks are not fully weaned then parents will still need the egg food to feed them

[hanabi]

Smurf

Thanks for the reply Padraic and the advice re egg food. In fact I hummed and harred about that little dilemma. Reduce the hen's urge to nest by removing a hormonal stimulant (egg food) but in doing so removing a source of protein for the chicks. Or keep the egg food and risk the hen abandoning the chicks. In the end I chose to remove the egg food as I think(?) I can cover protein needs to a large extent via the other foods I give each day.

I'm more than happy to replace it if the general consensus is its removal presents a greater overall risk to the chicks. What do others think?

Cheers.

[debbie276]

If your upping the protein by other means why not just give the egg? There are so many other good things in hard boiled eggs that the chicks need for growth that I would continue to feed it.
JMO

[hanabi]

debbie276

Hi Debbie,

I was under the impression that egg had other components (apart from protein) that stimulated the hen, but I could be completely wrong. In any case I'll replace the egg food as they do enjoy eating it.

Chicks should be fledged within a day or two, so I'm really looking forward to that.

Cheers.

[Smurf]

If chicks havn't fledged yet the parents will start laying in same nestbox, i don't think there's anyway of avoiding this with some pairs once the've decided to start a new clutch

[cindy]

it is not so much the egg food stimulating the parents to start a new clutch it is the box, feeding and caring for the young, being in breeding mode that prompts that second clutch, often parents slip the eggs from a second clutch under unweaned babies so that the unweaned babies act like a sort of incubator for the eggs, keeping them warm as the should.

There are breeders that while resting their hens, birds feed eggfood daily (Green Day Diet)... they do not have hens dropping eggs everywhere, I have followed this diet for a summer... no problem.

I have had zebras, scarlet chested parakeets do this and the young incubate the eggs, mom joins them, babies from the first clutch fledge and dad weans those out and mom continues to sit on the eggs. Young need egg food and protein for a while after weaning, their body is still growing and maturing and as Debbie mentioned the egg is pretty complete.

You can also take the eggs from the second clutch when mom is done laying and foster them under another pair or societies.

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Don't stop egg food!
Babies will need egg food, to develope and when molting.

P.S.

Just read some of the other posts.
If you truly don't want another Gouldian clutch , I would remove the nests once babies have fledged. If your house is warm enough, babies should be fine without the nest (once they fledge, don't rush them).

I WOULD NOT take away the egg food, because hard boiled eggs are so important for the youngsters.
It's the protein, that stimulates the hens to lay (plus being in breeding mode, and its protein that puts them into breeding mode). So if your going to add proteins in another form (by the way, what were you thinking of offering?), you may as well just stick with the eggs (which are very beneficial).