Breeding: Please help

[InleGM]

I'll start this off with a few things. First, I reside in Colorado. Second, I am a new bird owner so I don't feel like I'm doing much right. (Also, I'll underline my main points. I tend to ramble a bit)

I was gifted a lovely pair of Zebra Finches (one male (Neo) and one female (Dot), I'm positive on this) along with a cage (12 in x 11 in I believe). I've only had them for 2 months(ish) and already they've laid 3 clutches separate clutches. So onto the problem:

Why do they keep nudging the eggs out of the nest?

They aren't fully throwing them (though that's what happened with the first clutch), just pushing them to the outer rings of the nest aka no longer sitting on them. They aren't burying, cracking or otherwise harming the eggs but she is continuing to lay eggs regardless. I don't know if I should remove the old eggs, as they don't smell like they're rotting nor has it been 20 days, yet she hasn't been laying on them. I don't want to remove them if they have a chance, but I can't tell if they're dead. There have also been several behavioral things I have noticed. Such as, at night, they used to sleep snuggled up to each other. Now they don't. Dot has a tendency to stop sitting on the eggs after about 7 days. Even if they're still positioned in the center, I haven't messed with them- anything like that. It's as if she forgets and/or stops caring.

Before you suggest things, I have tried the following:

1. Making sure they have plenty of calcium (eggshells and grit)

2. I give them new food (standard), water (nutrient enriched) and snacks (from veggies to fruits, fresh and dried) on a daily basis.

3. They have tried to bury their eggs. So I stopped giving them new nesting materials and have removed some from the nest (this was in between clutches). The eggs aren't just rolling away.

My concerns:

1. Interaction. I have cats and I don't want to get rid of my birds or my cats (no the cats can't get near them) so my solution has been a pully system up at the ceiling. Meaning, I do have to lower them while I tend to the cage, I do this daily. They do get scared, though I've heard they're just naturally skittish animals. But if that's what has been causing this, I can try to interact with them less. On this note, I've also given more time to adjust to the movement before sticking my hand in and ensuring neither are in the nest at the time so they havent been freaking out too bad.

2. Sleeping. Due to the conditions of my house, they've had to be placed in my room and I will admit, I stay up late. In short, the bird's usual sleep schedule is 5-6 hours (1 am to dawn) then later in the day, another 5-6 hours (sundown to 9-10 pm) So about.... 10-12 hours of sleep each day. I KNOW this is bad for them though I don't know how to change it. As they're too skittish to put a blanket over their cage. (Last time I tried, they panicked for a solid 10 minutes and then I just removed it) also, yes, Ive tried laying it on top and slowly, for about 3 hours, fully moving it to cover the cage but they just don't calm down. If that's it..... How can I get them accustomed to the cover?

3. Traffic. I'll also admit, I am almost constantly in my room, so are my dog and 2 cats so i suppose it is a high traffic area. Though we don't make too much noise, honestly and the birds are raised up to the ceiling. I could also move them from my room. However the other room is quite cold (I suppose I could fix that if needed)

4. She is laying... And laying FAST. I've only had them for about 2 full months and already she's had 3 clutches (2 with 3 eggs, 1 with 4). I don't know if that's healthy or not.

5. They have been drinking a lot. I don't know if this has anything to do with anything. Though before they'd only drink 1/2 the container, now they drink a full one.

6. They have both tossed and eaten a few eggs in previous clutches. Now, however, I think I've remedied those issues.


Other then that, I don't know. If anyone can provide help, even a little bit. Please let me know.

-Inle

(Other side note: if they find the chance to have a successful clutch, where may I find information about banding? and/or do rules on that change depending on the state)

[MisterGribs]

As for the absolute terror birds experience at bedtime, mine do it too. My solution was to give them a tiny night light. I use battery-powered mini christmas lights inside the actual nest through holes I have drilled. I switch on the night light, cover the birds, and they DO still panic.

But, only for a few seconds. After this, they go to the nest and once they are quiet I turn off the night light.

As for the egg tossing and refusing to sit- mine are doing something similar. It's so disappointing, isn't it? I feel you. There are a lot of nice people here that have years of experience that will help you so just sit tight and keep checking the forum!

Having clutches in rapid succession is not great for your bird as everything to build these eggs is coming from her body. You can't exactly shove them back in, so you have to replace the lost resources to her body by feeding boiled egg, small mealworms, and finely chopped chicken breast to your hen.

Are you using vitamin drops to their water?? They're very important, but cheap and easy to find.

Do you have a full spectrum light bulb? It's the special kind you can use to grow plants, as it mimics the sun.

You can move them to the other room by providing them warmth with a heat lamp so they will be toasty.

Your cage doesn't give them much room to fly around inside it, and because of the other pets, they might not be safe flying outside of it. Saving for a bigger cage would definitely make them happier!

I'm pretty inexperienced too, so I don't have any more suggestions, but someone more seasoned will be along to help you shortly! InleGM

[Nicole R.]

InleGM

Hello and welcome! Fake eggs in the nest might help your hen to not continually lay, especially since she is not sure what to do with them after several days with each clutch. You can buy them here: http://glamgouldians.com/product-finch-canary-eggs.php 6 plastic eggs for less than two dollars.

If you want them to breed, you'll need to invest in a bigger cage, and figure out a plan to find homes for the babies. Otherwise, you'll need additional cages for the babies to prevent parents from breeding with offspring. . .

Good luck!
Nicole

[lem2bert]

InleGM

Hi and welcome from Massachusetts !

For the time being you could take the nest out of the cage and see if that calms them down.

I also agree with the previous suggestions to invest in a bigger cage. I wonder if moving them up and down makes them nervous also. I have canaries and finches and have noticed my canaries like to be where the action is . My finches are getting use to me being around their cages and just fly to the top and watch me when I am cleaning, but when I move the cages out from the wall to clean behind them they are more nervous.

I also use full spectrum lighting over my cages. They are on timers (which you can buy at just about any store and are not expensive) that go on just after sunrise and off just before sunset. None of my birds are bothered by the light going on or off.

Just a few suggestions and I wish you luck with your new birds.

[lovezebs]

InleGM

First of all, let me welcome you to the Forum.
There are many members on here who have Zebra Finches (among many other different species).

I would highly recommend a bigger cage.
The absolute minimum which is recommended in the US, is 30x18x18 inches (with 30in being the length from side to side) with bigger being much better. The reason for the longer cage, is due to the fact that finches fly from side to side for exercise. They need to be able to fly and exercise their wings, without which they tend to become obese and unhealthy.

So when it comes to cages THE BIGGER THE BETTER.

Regarding the idea of hanging the cage on a pulley system.
Pulling the cages up and down on a regular basis, would cause stress and anxiety for your birds (sort of like being on an elevator that rocks and sways, which you have no control over).

I would recommend, either placing them on a high piece of furniture, or hanging up a wide, stable shelf for their cage.

Regarding food.
High quality finch seed mix, with some added Canary seed.
Greens and vegetables, with some fruit .
Hard boiled egg twice a week when not breeding, everyday when breeding and raising chicks.
Crushed egg shells, cuttle bone, and or oystershell grit for calcium.
Mineral block, and Bird vitamins twice a week.

Regarding lighting.
Some hours of natural sunlight is important. If this is not possible, than some type of full spectrum avian lighting needs to be used.

Daylight and Nightime hours.
Sticking as close as possible to natural daytime hours is desirable, with some added lighting during the short winter days.

I would recommend placing your birds in a room where they can have some peace and quiet, and be safe from other pets in the house.

The room chosen, can be heated with a small space heater on cold days, to keep temps around 18-20C (70-72F). A warm light over 'one side' of the cage, will keep them comfortable as well. This can be as simple as a goose neck lamp with a 60w bulb (make sure however to offer some shade as well).

Nightime lighting to prevent panic attacks, is as simple as a small plug in night light.

You can cover the cage if you wish to do so. If done slowly and calmly, around the same time every day, the birds will get used to it. They may flutter around a bit, but will settle down. That said, I would not use any 'really heavy material'. Something like a dark coloured light weight bed sheet or something similar will work best.

Regarding breeding.
My first question would be..... Do you want to breed burds? and Why?

If you do not wish to breed, then I would remove nests and nesting materials out of the cage. Nests, trigger breeding behavior, and contrary to common belief, are not needed for sleeping. You may still find the occasional eggs, but they can be tossed.

If you do want to breed....

Think carefully about this.

Zebra Finches, are the bunny rabbits of the finch world.
Do you have unlimited space for several large cages or flight cages to house the upcoming babies (males and females seperately) ? Or, do you have a Pet Shop in your area, which would be willing to take these babies off your hands on a regular basis, once they are weaned and self sufficient?
Babies, are cute, babies are adorable (personally I absolutely love them) BUT... Zebras, can produce a whole lot of babies, who will produce many more babies... (yes, they will breed with one another, parents and children, brothers and sisters, etc. which is not a good thing).

So these factors, are definitely something to keep in mind before you decide to breed.

Regarding why your pair are tossing or abandoning their eggs.
They are probably extremely stressed due to lack of sleep, inconsistent daylight hours, and cage being constantly moved and jolted. Another possibility, is that they are simply young and inexperienced, but in your situation, I would think the former is more likely.

If you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask .

Enjoy your birds

[DamonIRB]

I will agree with everything that has been said so far, but will add one thought... you might want to remove the nest, all nesting material, and put them on an austerity diet for a few weeks. They are obviously stressed and freaked out - the last thing any stressed animal needs to do is go through a reproduction phase. They will eventually get used to their new environment and your schedule, but they are not going to stop nest building and laying until you get their brains out of that mode.

An austerity diet is a very natural thing. For wild birds, it occurs naturally in late winter, when available food is at a bare minimum, daylight hours are short, and sufficient cover/protection is in short supply. There is little protein available, and in some areas, very little water, as most of the typically available water is frozen. A diet of mostly, if not only, seed, water, and grit/eggshell for 4-6 weeks, will pretty much turn off the breeding instinct. I wouldn't take away the calcium options, as she has been laying a lot and is most likely depleted. Some down time will help her rest, recover and replenish her stores.

[Sally]

InleGM

You've already gotten a lot of good advice, but I wanted to welcome you to the forum! There's lots of good reading at www.finchinfo.com, where you will find many articles on finch care and breeding. If you put your general location in your profile, it makes it easier for members to help you.

I would guess that the biggest stresser for your birds right now is the pulley system, which keeps them upset, even more than the light situation. I have birds in my living room, I'm a night owl, tv on, and yet mine seem to do OK.

[InleGM]

First off, I wanna say:
THANK YOU ALL ever so much for responding
I'm already gathering these ideas and working to find solutions. I know it'll help my little ones be much happier. I have decided I'm just going to try to get them to stop trying to reproduce at least for a while, give them more of an adjustment period.

I just have a few more questions...
Are the eggs dead, then? I don't want to remove the nest if there is a chance they may hatch.
By removing the nest, will I hurt them? I don't mean directly. When I actually do, I will make absolute sure not to crush them or anything like that. What I mean is.. If she has eggs forming inside her, will she try to hold onto them and hurt herself or anything like that?

Also, slightly unrelated:
Should I be sanitizing their things? (using proven safe solutions) I work in a cat shelter and as such we sanitize literally EVERYTHING almost daily. However in the case of fish, if you clean too often it will kill them. Should I be sanitizing food bowls, water, baths, and generally cleaning the cage every change out? Or how often?

Finally, to answer your question Lovezebs. I kind of want to breed them to watch the process and learn more about them.. And my roommate highly suggests I breed to sell them as well. (I WILL find good homes for them. No ifs ands or buts on that one) However, above all, I just want them to be happy.

-Inle

[lovezebs]

InleGM

Well good luck with the birdies.

Regarding sanitizing everything:

I wash food and water dishes daily with hot water and dish soap. You can also wash them with a water/vinegar solution.
I clean cage bars, perches, trays and cage greenery with a solution of water and vinegar.

Cage papers, should be changed daily.

[DamonIRB]

Are the eggs dead, then? I don't want to remove the nest if there is a chance they may hatch.
By removing the nest, will I hurt them? I don't mean directly. When I actually do, I will make absolute sure not to crush them or anything like that. What I mean is.. If she has eggs forming inside her, will she try to hold onto them and hurt herself or anything like that?

They may not be "dead", but if they have been pushing them aside and/or ignoring them, they are not going to hatch. Incubation is a delicate process, as it is. Left unattended and cold for more than a day or two reduces the odds of success dramatically. I know it sucks, but this is, unfortunately, not uncommon with captive birds. Pairs who have successfully breed numerous times will sometimes abandon a clutch; it is baffling and frustrating, but it happens. This will not be the first time you have to remove a nest with eggs in it...

If she does have "one in the oven", she will find a place to lay it. The bottom of the cage, the food dish/cup, somewhere. This is one of the reasons to make sure she has access to plenty of calcium. Cut back on the protein, but do not let her go without calcium, at all.

[ac12]

Put a sheet on the BACK and sides of the cage, leave the front open. This makes them feel safer by not being exposed to predators on all 4 sides.
You can do it all at once, or gradually. Start by covering the back, then a few days later one side, then a few days later the other side. And just leave the front open.

The problem with cats is that they are patient hunters. And if there is a way they can get close to the cage they could be scaring the birds. Scared birds won't breed.

As for bands, I recommend you get numbered split plastic bands NOW. Once the chicks molt into their adult feathers, you may not be able to tell the chicks from the parents.

My method is to use colored numbered bands on the left leg.
The color of the band corresponds to the year. This way I know what year the bird hatched, and thus its age. I get my bands from RedBird and use their color scheme, where 2017 is a silver or gray band.

On the right leg I put a colored band which correspond to the last digit of the numbered band. This way I can tell which bird it is, without having to catch the bird to read the numbered band.
I use a standard color code
0 = black
1 = brown
2 = red
3 = orange
4 = yellow
5 = green
6 = blue
7 = violet
8 = grey
9 = white

I have 2 cages for the chicks.
- Once the chicks are weaned, I move all the chicks from the breeding cage (cage #1) into the juvenile/female cage (cage #2).
- When I see a zebra chick singing or trying to sing, I know it is a male, and I note the color of the band on the right leg. Cuz when you are trying to catch them, they will get all mixed up. The color of the band on the right leg helps you to keep track of the male chick, which gets moved to the male cage (cage #3).
- At the end, cage #2 should have only females, and cage #3 only males. This way they don't interbreed.

WARNING. The FIC tells you to not have ODD number of birds in a cage (3 or 5), because zebras will pair up and the pair(s) will then pick on the odd bird out. And they can and do gang up on the odd bird out, plucking it badly or even KILLING it. I've had that happen once too many times.