Eggs MUST be duds? And ... complications

[lovezebs]

Sojourner

Not really weird.

Socies, not unlike chickens, can lay eggs then lay more eggs.
Right at the moment, I have the same thing happening over here with my Societies and Zebras. Once someone starts laying eggs, everyone starts laying eggs

Here is a link (from the finch info centre), which I think you'll find helpful, and another that explains what to look for when candeling.

http://www.finchinfo.com/breeding/eggs.php

https://ladygouldian.com/content/determ ... ten-reeves

Now about what to do with the kids laying too many eggs.
I think different options have been mentioned already, so pardon me if I repeat myself.

I understand completely that you don't want to seperate your little couple.

Removing the nest and all nesting material, may or may not work (she may continue laying different places around the cage).

Replacing the eggs with old eggs or fake eggs for her to sit on, will give her body a break from laying, which gives her a chance to replanish her reserves, and rest . It may also break the cycle of constantly laying.

Cutting way back on egg food for a while, along with shortening their daylight hours, will help with getting them out of breeding mode.

Hope this is helpful.

[wildbill]

well in all honesty the chances of those eggs being any good after a month -fertile would be nil. although I have had gouldian leave their eggs for 24 odd hours and not go back. I have found the cold eggs in the nest and moved them to another nest and hatch.

now back to the candling. by day 7 and with a proper candling torch if fertile you can see life forming in the eggs. why I think day 7 is better sometimes its hard to make a call at day 4 or 5 on a fertility check. I have thought about throwing eggs on day 5 and classed as clear. looked again 2 or more days later and they are opaque. would have been a bad call to toss them. try again and candle 4 or 5 days later and if you cant see through the eggs - all good and they are on their way to hatching.

I checked about 8 gouldian nests today and four days back some were veined -today there were probably at least 20 eggs I could not see through or opaque in colour. i'd expect that these eggs will hatch in approx. 4 days time give or take 24 hours. well I don't expect -I know they will

after 50 years breeding finches on and off I gotta be right sometimes

as for the pulling of eggs or separate the birds etc I think its really your call and in the end I am sure you will know the correct decision to make

[Sojourner]

wildbill lovezebs

Yeah I have done all the typical things like keeping them to the natural light cycle - I use a blackout curtain to cover them at dusk. And keeping them cooler, etc etc. And it worked, as it did last year - but when I moved them here it turns out the only spot for the cage is in the Banana Belt of this house, which I typically keep at 68F in the daytime during winter and 60F at night. Just over in that spot it is noticeably warmer.

I was just not willing to go colder in daytime so when she laid an egg AGAIN (after I had it stopped at her previous location for like a month) I sort of gave up and decided to go the fake egg route - except I never got the fake eggs as I was in one of my Twilight Zone periods. No sense of the passage of time. Hence she has sat on them for over a month.

I know they HAVE to be dead but I have this irrational fear ...

They are actually not eating their egg food, which would be really bad if they actually did hatch anything. But I was putting it in the cage with the nest because I figured they needed the energy, having at that point given up (temporarily) on trying to impede the Egg Train.

So now there are just the new eggs to deal with, if it/they are even still in there. I'm about to clean the cage so I'll check/dump/clean whatever is appropriate the nest while I've got them trapped in the other side of the cage.

Which brings up another question - if societies can continue to lay even when they have a clutch already - do fake eggs EVER work to break the breeding cycle for them? Wouldn't they just start laying again?

Although I have to admit, they sat for over a month before I saw a new egg. So maybe they only start laying again when they've given up on the current clutch?

[lovezebs]

Sojourner

What happens if you remove the nest?

[Sojourner]

lovezebs

There has never ever been a nest in the cage with this pair until I PUT one there with the idea of letting her sit fakes (and discarding the eggs as she lays them). Which I, in my Twilight Zone state, never got around to getting.

So this round of egg laying (the last was courtesy of Molly Brown, who later got eggbound on her second laying attempt and died) started sometime in fall, courtesy of Pyewacket obviously this time since Bambi is All Male.

She was laying off and on in two or possibly 3 bouts, but I think it was just the 2. Both times I got her to stop with about 4 to 6 weeks in between bouts. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure both times she laid 5 or 6 times so maybe she just hit her clutch limit and I'm fooling myself that anything I did had anything to do with it, LOL!

She was at my son's house as I was painting here. So the first problem seemed to be that he wasn't covering them at dusk, and he would sit in there til all hours of the night with the light on because that is where is computer is. When he reported repeatedly finding an egg in the bottom of the cage every morning, I found out he hadn't been covering them until HE went to bed so once I had him fix that, she stopped.

Then awhile later - 4 to 6 weeks as best either of us can remember, and his account is apt to be more reliable than mine but he agrees with this estimate - she started laying again. This was around Xmas and I was staying there to take care of the cats as he and DIL were out of town. I ascertained that it was REALLY warm in that room compared to the rest of the house and adjusted the vent until my Thermapen said 67F. Again - she stopped.

Then I moved them here in early Feb and she started laying again. That's when I decided to go the fake egg route and went ahead and put a nest in the cage - except I lost track of time totally by then and never got the fake eggs.

Which brings us to today.

I took the nest out while cleaning the cage and sure enough there are now 5 healthy looking eggs in there while the blue-gray ones were still there as well. I did go ahead and try the bob test - I know, you guys all KNOW they were dead but I had to try - and not only did nobody bob, but some of them were actually floating SIDEWAYS.

Please spare me the gruesome details of why that was happening. I suspect the dry desert air may have gotten them. I THINK I was giving her access to a bath every day or two, but ... I can't rely on my memory in this regard. I CAN try to make sure it doesn't happen again with the new clutch. I didn't candle them because - not dark yet and I forgot to get the teensy flashlight yesterday also. But they are pink and healthy looking, unlike the zombie eggs I just disposed of.

Pyewacket and Bambi were not very happy with me but as soon as I put the nest back (now with only the eggs that might still be alive) Bambi jumped back in there and fluffed his little self up and went right back to brooding. The nest was out of the cage for all of 10 or 15 mins and I was careful not to so much as touch the possibly-live eggs so hopefully all will be well.

And I have put a checklist on the shelf so I can check each day whether or not they have gotten a bath so I can keep track of that better. If its not already too late.

My feeling is that these eggs WERE viable, hence the color change (from white to pinkish to blue-grey) as the embryo developed and then they died in the egg.

Feel free to tell me if that surmise is incorrect as I am going by logic, not knowledge there. I've not read anything about eggs changing color as they develop but it seems reasonable.

I take that back, I did go and look again doing another GOOGLE (actually several till I got a hit) and came up with a link to a post that says they DO change color in this way as they develop. Just hadn't seen that anywhere I'd read up to now. So assuming the post I read is correct, then I guessed right about that. Anyway.

At this point I am reasonably certain all 5 of the original clutch were viable, up to a point. I am hoping the current clutch is NOT viable as Bambi has not done his mating song this whole time, which I hope means they haven't mated again. Or, maybe he did it on one of the rare occasions I was out of the house. Who knows. Clearly not I!

I'll try to remember to get something to candle the eggs with as I'm pretty sure my DeWalt 18V flashlight would probably fry them in the egg. Assuming there is anything live in there. I kind of hope not. But if so, I hope they make it this time.

And no, I did NOT break open any of the 5 zombie eggs to see what was in there. I don't want to know. That might matter if I actually WANTED to breed and have chicks, but since I don't, I'll settle for not screwing around with them too much and hope for the best for now, and as soon as this batch is "done", one way or another, out the nest comes and I will be very very careful never to put one in there again unless I have the fakes ON HAND and all other methods have failed.

Last time I disturbed Pyewacket and Molly Brown's nest (before I realized that keeping that bamboo nest in the cage wouldn't JUST encourage them to sleep there), the eggs all disappeared 2 or 3 days later. I know now those were all infertile because both Pye and Molly were female, but I still thought Pye was male at the time.

I don't know which of them ate the eggs - or if both of them did. So hopefully it wasn't Pye who got upset and ate all the eggs last time. But if they're gone next time I check, I suppose that Pye was likely guilty that time as well.

I'm going with the Ides of March as the start of incubation - because I can REMEMBER that. I'm pretty sure the first egg was in there at least a week before that. I will go back through my old posts and see if I happened to mention finding that new egg in there anywhere to get a better grip on it. But for now that's what I'm going to assume.

So 3 weeks from that is April 5. If I've seen nothing pop out by then, it's probably safe to assume nobody made it this time either, right? At which point I will dispose of it all and take the nest out of the cage.

Unless, of course, they DO hatch before that and then I'll have chicklets. Watch them all hatch on April 1!!!

Problem being since those eggs have been sat every day since they were laid (as opposed to not getting sat until the 3rd or 4th) there are going to be a couple of chicks at least who are going to be way way WAY behind their older sibs. So - more tragedy looming.

Right now Pye is sitting the nest again and I just now heard Bambi, who is out and about in the cage, doing a short mating call.

Oh for heaven's sake, you guys!

[Sojourner]

wildbill

I'm pretty sure after 50 years you are right pretty nearly ALL the time when it comes to breeding.

But around here it seems I'm as focused on NOT having chicks as they are on HAVING them. Drat their feathery hides! LOL!

Thanks for your advice.

[lovezebs]

Sojourner

If I remember right, hatching dates for Socies, can range between 12 to 16, or even some claim 20 days after hatching, depending on how tight they have been sitting.

So if you think these eggs started appearing around the 15th of March, then if they are fertile they could start hatching as soon as March the 26th and up to possibly April 3rd .

You are repeatedly claiming, that you don't want to breed, but you sound pretty excited about the possibility of little chickies.....you remind me of me a few years ago, lol.

I was not a breeder, didn't want to be a breeder, didn't want my birds to breed, blah blah blah.... Was going to have only male birds, no girls nah-ahh. And then one of my four "male" Zebras, started laying eggs LOL !!!

[MisterGribs]

My hen is out of control as well. I took away her nest and mealworms to give her a break, but she still squeals like a broken fire engine night and day. She is a desperate housewife, and Hiro has begun to venture outside the cage to get away from her thirstiness.

Even if he even just flies past her, she screams 'wheeee!!' And sticks her butt in the air. She loves to make the eggs, and then throw them out. Hiro is getting a bit fed up with her.

I do hope our hens learn when to quit, soon. There's more to life, lol

[Sojourner]

lovezebs

I am actually quite certain they first started appearing BEFORE March 15th, probably more likely around March 8th, give or take. But March 15th is a date I can remember.

You know.

" 'ware the ides of March!"

Yeah. That's how "excited" I am about chicklets. Seriously. Where would I put the little buggers? Assuming they survive at all. Plus the whole thing with the last laid/last to hatch - I am in no way fit for hand feeding, if they get tossed they will die.

So no, not "excited". More "dreading" and feeling guilty no matter the outcome. If they die in the shell - my fault for fouling this up in the first place (no pun intended). And if they survive to hatch but there are still losses, as will almost certainly be the case - still my fault, etc. LOL!

I am already a mass egg-murderer. FIVE, count them, FIVE viable eggs gone the way of all flesh.

MisterGribs

Seriously! I swear for about 15 minutes after I "cleaned out" the nest, while both birds were out and about, Bambi would start his mating thing. COME ON, GUYS! We're not even through with the eggs you've already got yet! Lay off already! Think about baseball, or England, or something, anything but more of THAT!

[lovezebs]

Sojourner

They do have a one track mind, as in be fruitful and multiply

I don't know how those dead eggs could possibly have been your fault. These things happen my dear, and it's no one's fault.

[MisterGribs]

Sojourner There's always the queen.

Don't get too beat up about murdering, I have killed and eaten so many animals when I've had to, and accidentally opened a sinking egg from a float test to find out it was still alive.

This is how we learn, and those eggs would have not hatched even if you stayed up all night turning them and playing songs for them, trust me. It's just a matter of the right conditions, and sometimes you just can't provide them, especially not with hens like we have. The titanic would be sinking and they would be collecting pieces of grass.

[Sojourner]

MisterGribs

OMG, so funny you mention the Titanic! My poor Molly Brown who died of egg binding (despite the fact that Pyewacket, her cage buddy, ALSO turned out to be female) was named after - that's right - THAT Molly Brown. The Unsinkable.

Actually she was named after a favorite canary hen of my mother's, who was named after The Unsinkable, but you get the drift.

It's a good thing I'm not superstitious or I'd think I jinxed the poor little girl, as Canary Molly Brown ALSO died of egg-binding, also in the total absence of a male, and despite all our efforts to get her to freakin' stop pumping them eggs out.

But of course we do not believe in jinxes. Of course not.

[MisterGribs]

Sojourner Wow! What a coincidence! :0

Egg binding is a real horror... Poor little things. I've heard that feeding linseed oil to laying hens will kind of lube them up and keep them from binding, but I've never tried it.

[Sojourner]

MisterGribs

It seems to be caused by low calcium levels, which is why I freak out every time my girl starts laying. Due to my total lack of a sense of time it seems like she lays egg after egg after egg, which terrifies me.

However in typing out the sequence of events this last go round it has become obvious to me that there has been a 4 to 6 week gap between each bout of egg laying. So she's probably been fine (especially with 4 sources of calcium in the cage with them, at least 3 of which she uses regularly).

I'm convinced that part of what caused Molly's downfall was that I was letting them free-feed on spinach, which is high in oxalic acid. Oxalic acid interferes with the ability to absorb calcium. When I say free feed, I mean these guys would stuff themselves on spinach until you'd swear they were about to burst. If it didn't CAUSE the egg-binding, it for sure did not help one little bit.

I no longer feed spinach AT ALL. And I pay attention to oxalic acid levels in what I DO feed them. Popeye may thrive on spinach, but my birdies do not, LOL!

[MisterGribs]

Sojourner I am similarly worried to overfeed dandelion greens. I have seen a finch eat a plant twice its size, for sure. With mine, it's always dill plants.