After reading numerous posts which mention chick tossing, I am left with questions regarding this phenomenon. I understand Darwinism and the fact that the strongest have the best chances for survivial, but I am left wondering why whole clutches are sometimes tossed. Or why a chick which is abandoned by its parents and then fostered, can go on to live a healthy life. Or how parents which toss a clutch, can gain "experience" and go on to succeed with the next one. Or why other parents are always unsuccessful. Apart from human interference, what degree does environment and health play in the process?
1) Please respond with any insight or observations concerning tossing.
Also if you have finch breeding experience, please fill in the percetages below as best you can (averages). I think it would be interesting to see what the results are.
2) What percentage of eggs actually hatch?
3) Of those that hatch, what percentage survive past the first 24 hours?
4) What percetage of chicks in a clutch are tossed?
5) Of those chicks tossed, what percentage are still alive when you find them?
6) Is there a predominant time of day you find tossed chicks?
7) Of those that are tossed, what percentage of those survive (fostered) to fledging?
8 ) What species does the info above refer to?
Thanks
Chick Tossing Questions
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Lloyd
- Hatchling
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:45 am
- Location: New Brunswick, Canada
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Sally
- Mod Extraordinaire
- Posts: 17929
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:55 pm
- Location: DFW, Texas
Just some general observations on tossing, since I have had some experience with it! Just as with everything else with our birds, there are no hard and fast rules. One theory is that birds toss when they feel their food source is not adequate to raise their young, so they won't waste their time and energy on a clutch they feel will die anyway. This happens with some of the more exotic species, especially those that just about demand live food for their young. The same theory applies when the parents feel that their nest is threatened by predators (and we are considered predators!), they will toss and start again.
As far as 'gaining experience', this seems to apply more to Gouldians than other species. For whatever reason, Gouldians have gotten a reputation for not always knowing what to do the first time around, or even the first breeding season around. Zebras, on the other hand, are ready for action practically right after weaning!
Sometimes, failures are due to one or both birds being too old. When we buy birds, unless they are closed banded, we have no idea how old they are. We take them home, set them up, and then nothing happens, next thing you know, they die--for all we know, they could have been senior citizens when we bought them!
From what I have read, and observed in the short time I have been breeding finches, in my opinion, environment has a great deal to do with breeding success. Of course, it is impossible to duplicate their life in the wild, but the more comfortable you can make them with their surroundings, the more luck you will have breeding. Some of the 'wilder' species do much better in large, well-planted aviaries than in cages.
Health is critical to breeding. Breeding takes a lot out of the birds--laying eggs is hard on the hen, and both parents work very hard to raise their young. When you consider that in just a few weeks, these babies go from tiny babies to almost full-sized fledglings, and then within weeks or a month, they are weaned, those parents have done a lot of work in a short period of time. If you watch a group of young fledglings, they seem to be constantly begging from their parents.
It is hard to generalize with finches--you have different species, with different needs--you have domesticated birds, and you have wild caught that have been thru incredible stress! One day they were flying free in Africa, next they are trapped, caged, medicated, put in quarantine, shipped, medicated again, quarantined again, sent to the wholesalers, sent to the dealers, and finally brought home by us, where they are confined, fed a strange diet, offered a nest which has been made in a factory, and if we are very lucky, they adjust to all this and present us with beautiful little babies.
As far as 'gaining experience', this seems to apply more to Gouldians than other species. For whatever reason, Gouldians have gotten a reputation for not always knowing what to do the first time around, or even the first breeding season around. Zebras, on the other hand, are ready for action practically right after weaning!
Sometimes, failures are due to one or both birds being too old. When we buy birds, unless they are closed banded, we have no idea how old they are. We take them home, set them up, and then nothing happens, next thing you know, they die--for all we know, they could have been senior citizens when we bought them!
From what I have read, and observed in the short time I have been breeding finches, in my opinion, environment has a great deal to do with breeding success. Of course, it is impossible to duplicate their life in the wild, but the more comfortable you can make them with their surroundings, the more luck you will have breeding. Some of the 'wilder' species do much better in large, well-planted aviaries than in cages.
Health is critical to breeding. Breeding takes a lot out of the birds--laying eggs is hard on the hen, and both parents work very hard to raise their young. When you consider that in just a few weeks, these babies go from tiny babies to almost full-sized fledglings, and then within weeks or a month, they are weaned, those parents have done a lot of work in a short period of time. If you watch a group of young fledglings, they seem to be constantly begging from their parents.
It is hard to generalize with finches--you have different species, with different needs--you have domesticated birds, and you have wild caught that have been thru incredible stress! One day they were flying free in Africa, next they are trapped, caged, medicated, put in quarantine, shipped, medicated again, quarantined again, sent to the wholesalers, sent to the dealers, and finally brought home by us, where they are confined, fed a strange diet, offered a nest which has been made in a factory, and if we are very lucky, they adjust to all this and present us with beautiful little babies.
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FinchezRule
- Callow Courter
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:09 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
I've experienced chick tossing with one pair of birds so far. They have had two clutches.
2. 1st clutch 1/6 hatched 2nd clutch 5/6 hatched (1 dead in shell)
3. 100% survive past the first 24 hrs
4. 100% of chicks are tossed in the clutches
5. 80% are still alive when found
6. Usually the chicks are tossed before the afternoon usually in the mid morning.
7. 0% have survived so far
8. This particular pair were Gouldians
2. 1st clutch 1/6 hatched 2nd clutch 5/6 hatched (1 dead in shell)
3. 100% survive past the first 24 hrs
4. 100% of chicks are tossed in the clutches
5. 80% are still alive when found
6. Usually the chicks are tossed before the afternoon usually in the mid morning.
7. 0% have survived so far
8. This particular pair were Gouldians
I don't have any finches right now but I used to, I'll try to provide my knowledge around the forum
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mickp
- Weaning
- Posts: 1822
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:23 am
- Location: South Australia
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Annabelle
- Hatchling
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:39 am
I think the ins and outs of why chicks are tossed is probably complicated but I think the whole process of domestication has played a huge part. We (humans) have bred much of the instinct out of alot of species, the environment is not usually close to natural and we expect them to get used to things like dogs and cats and still behave normally. We take eggs off parents and incubate or foster them to parents of a completely different species. We often inbreed and as their environment is tightly controlled the weakest can survive with the strongest. I think egg tossing is the price we pay.
Now that I have just attacked aviculture let me just say that I know everyone on here does the very best they can by thier birds and the birds are very lucky to have such dedicated and caring owners. We do what we can with what we have.
Now that I have just attacked aviculture let me just say that I know everyone on here does the very best they can by thier birds and the birds are very lucky to have such dedicated and caring owners. We do what we can with what we have.
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Huxley
- Pip
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:48 pm
Just a thought on Darwinism...
We see infanticide in many species. I am mostly keen on mammals but I imagine similar principles apply.
1) Sometimes when the babies have some sort of defect the parents destroy them.
2) When the animals are stresses sometimes they destroy them.
3) Inexperience can also play a big role in mothering.
4) We just don't know! I'm not a finch and I don't think I will ever get to be.=)
In general, anytime rearing conditions may not be right or it might be a waste to expend all the effort on that cohort of babies they get tossed/eaten/killed.
Also, soapbox: "Fitness" of an animal is measure in the number of surviving offspring it has. It is not measured by the genetic robustness of the animal or how healthy it is. If a diabetic obese man has 5 children that have survived to reproductive age he is more fit than an olympic athlete that has 2 surviving children. The term "survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer. In Spencer and Darwin's time no one had studied Mendel's work in detail and molecular genetics wasnt a science yet. In that time evolution was also in it's baby stages and many assumed that a more robust animal would produce the most offspring and was the most fit. In all honesty the more robust animal probably WOULD have more offspring but as we can see, especially in humans, that this is definetly not the rule.
:steps off soapbox
We see infanticide in many species. I am mostly keen on mammals but I imagine similar principles apply.
1) Sometimes when the babies have some sort of defect the parents destroy them.
2) When the animals are stresses sometimes they destroy them.
3) Inexperience can also play a big role in mothering.
4) We just don't know! I'm not a finch and I don't think I will ever get to be.=)
In general, anytime rearing conditions may not be right or it might be a waste to expend all the effort on that cohort of babies they get tossed/eaten/killed.
Also, soapbox: "Fitness" of an animal is measure in the number of surviving offspring it has. It is not measured by the genetic robustness of the animal or how healthy it is. If a diabetic obese man has 5 children that have survived to reproductive age he is more fit than an olympic athlete that has 2 surviving children. The term "survival of the fittest" was coined by Herbert Spencer. In Spencer and Darwin's time no one had studied Mendel's work in detail and molecular genetics wasnt a science yet. In that time evolution was also in it's baby stages and many assumed that a more robust animal would produce the most offspring and was the most fit. In all honesty the more robust animal probably WOULD have more offspring but as we can see, especially in humans, that this is definetly not the rule.
:steps off soapbox
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williep
- 1 Egg Laid
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:42 am
- Location: South Africa
I can see where Lloyd is coming from, he wants to do everything possible to ensure the maximum amount of chicks survive. Isn't that what we all want from our birds?
The harsh reality is that all eggs aren't destined to hatch and all hatchlings aren't destined to survive and all juvies will not make it to adulthood. Call it what you want Darwinism or natural selection but the amount of eggs in a clutch is nature’s way to ensure that the species will live on and ensure that enough survive to raise the next generation.
I personally am willing to lose a few eggs and chicks to "train" parents to be better parents as my work schedule just doesn't allow me enough time to be able to save every tossed or underfed chick. Some people are just not willing to take that risk and that is why they foster and I believe it is an important and sometimes underestimated practice that should be applauded.
Now back to your question of tossing, I believe it is very species specific too, I've only seen 1 BC Zebra chick tossed in my entire breeding season last season and successfully weaned 19 chicks.
As far as my Gouldian are concerned: What percentage hatch? Out of my 2 pairs I've hatched 0/16 this season, so according to my complex calculations that equates to 0.00% - LOL.
The harsh reality is that all eggs aren't destined to hatch and all hatchlings aren't destined to survive and all juvies will not make it to adulthood. Call it what you want Darwinism or natural selection but the amount of eggs in a clutch is nature’s way to ensure that the species will live on and ensure that enough survive to raise the next generation.
I personally am willing to lose a few eggs and chicks to "train" parents to be better parents as my work schedule just doesn't allow me enough time to be able to save every tossed or underfed chick. Some people are just not willing to take that risk and that is why they foster and I believe it is an important and sometimes underestimated practice that should be applauded.
Now back to your question of tossing, I believe it is very species specific too, I've only seen 1 BC Zebra chick tossed in my entire breeding season last season and successfully weaned 19 chicks.
As far as my Gouldian are concerned: What percentage hatch? Out of my 2 pairs I've hatched 0/16 this season, so according to my complex calculations that equates to 0.00% - LOL.