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Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:35 am
by vishnu
Hello everyone,
I recently rescued a weaver finch nest in which one of the eggs hatched at my house. I have been feeding the hatchling a watery paste of ground freeze dried tubifex worms and mixed cereal powder. I recently bought Nutribird A21 for handfeeding the hatchling, it is presently 3 days old but I seem to have overfed the hatchling in the evening and i am worried about it. I am attaching a closeup picture of it for reference. This is my first time handling a hatchling and I have never raised or kept birds before. I just want it grow up a bit and survive before handing it over to authorities. Urgent help needed and any and all advice is welcomed.
It has been pooping and eating normally for 2 days. I fed it throughout the night in 2 hour intervals for the past two days and it begs for food if I open the lid even now. I do not know if this is a slow crop problem or an overfeeding problem, please help!
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:17 pm
by Babs _Owner
vishnu
The crop looks a bit too full for a 3 day old. I dont know what the type of weaver it is, so maybe someone can give advice on the best formula food for them.
Chick should be kept at 92-95 degree temp
Food should be @ the same temperature. Is the crop not emptying? What is the problem you are having?
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:54 pm
by cindy
The formula need to be between 101 degrees and 104 degrees. Use a candy thermometer to read the temperature of the formula, if too cold it can cause issues in the crop emptying. Abandon chicks can become dehydrated quickly, the first few feeding of formula should be more of a brothy consistancy to help hydrate the baby, do not give just water.
Handfed babies that have been abandon or chilled for a while can start to have yeasts develop, chilled for longer periods of time the babies organs will shut down, kidneys will fail. Best to keep it at about 94 to 95 degrees.
Handfeeding formula is mostly carbs, if the baby has yeast forming you can beak dose medistatin or nystatin or a few drops of organic ACV (apple cider vinegar) in the formula.
On newly hatched babies the crop on one side will fill as they get older both will fill.
Can you turn the baby on it's back so we can see the belly?
You may want to contact a wildlife rehabber
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:47 pm
by vishnu
It's a baya weaver or the baya finch, the temperature that I've kept it is 96 degrees, the formula and the worm-seed-cereal mixture that was fed to it was at 95 to 97 degrees. So far it has pooped thrice in relatively large amounts and good consistency (as far as I can tell from comparing photos from the internet (black, moist but firm) ) I have fed it the nutribird a21 formula in a soupy form, not too watery. It's night now and I want to leave it alone for 5 to 6 hours for emptying the crop before I feed it again, right now, my concerns are:
1) Will an yeast infection develop if the formula is in the crop for about 4 to 5 hours?
2) About 1/3 of the crop is still filled with the worm mixture that I fed it about 5 hours ago (I'm thinking slow crop movement based on info from the internet). Will this clear out on its own in the next 5 hours or so? What should I do to try to clear the crop if it doesn't clear out on its own?
This is the first I am handling a bird, never handled one before, much less a hatchling. The rehabber told me that he could rehab it if it survives for a few more days in my care.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:54 pm
by vishnu
cindy wrote:
The formula need to be between 101 degrees and 104 degrees. Use a candy thermometer to read the temperature of the formula, if too cold it can cause issues in the crop emptying. Abandon chicks can become dehydrated quickly, the first few feeding of formula should be more of a brothy consistancy to help hydrate the baby, do not give just water.
Handfed babies that have been abandon or chilled for a while can start to have yeasts develop, chilled for longer periods of time the babies organs will shut down, kidneys will fail. Best to keep it at about 94 to 95 degrees.
Handfeeding formula is mostly carbs, if the baby has yeast forming you can beak dose medistatin or nystatin or a few drops of organic ACV (apple cider vinegar) in the formula.
On newly hatched babies the crop on one side will fill as they get older both will fill.
Can you turn the baby on it's back so we can see the belly?
You may want to contact a wildlife rehabber
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:17 pm
by cindy
your formula needs to be warmer, when they are small like this they need to be fed often like every couple of hours....
if food sits to long in the crop/crop due to it not emptying bacteria can set in, yeast is often secondary.
Formula is pretty balanced for baby birds, contains proteins, did the rehabber give you any tips on raising the baby?
this is a section on handfeeding
http://www.finchinfo.com/breeding/handfeeding.php
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:40 pm
by Babs _Owner
cindy
If the temperature of the formula matches or slightly exceeds the brooder temperature, the chick is not going to be DOOMED. They digest quite well if the brooder temp is maintained properly.
If a person doesnt have a laser thermometer, and is very inexperienced I am hesitate to recommend a 104 degree feeding, as a 130 degree hot spot can be lurking in that mixture. And my laser thermometer can detect instantly 99 degrees in the middle of the formula and whopping 135 degrees at the formula at the edge coming in contact with the bowl surface (especially if metal). If my mid-temp formula matches my chick's brooder temp, Im pretty safe my overall temp in the cup-bowl wont exceed 105 degrees and I wont kill my chick through crop burn.
Please read his post, it states " ground freeze dried tubifex worms and mixed cereal powder. " was the first thing he fed the chick. And when the crop slowed
His next post states "About 1/3 of the crop is still filled with the worm mixture that I fed it about 5 hours ago "
Are you considering the "worm" mixture into this equation?
PS
Okay I had to do the math for this, I hate math. It makes me itch. Hugs Cindy,
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:15 am
by vishnu
Babs wrote:
cindy
If the temperature of the formula matches or slightly exceeds the brooder temperature, the chick is not going to be DOOMED. They digest quite well if the brooder temp is maintained properly.
If a person doesnt have a laser thermometer, and is very inexperienced I am hesitate to recommend a 104 degree feeding, as a 130 degree hot spot can be lurking in that mixture. And my laser thermometer can detect instantly 99 degrees in the middle of the formula and whopping 135 degrees at the formula at the edge coming in contact with the bowl surface (especially if metal). If my mid-temp formula matches my chick's brooder temp, Im pretty safe my overall temp in the cup-bowl wont exceed 105 degrees and I wont kill my chick through crop burn.
Please read his post, it states " ground freeze dried tubifex worms and mixed cereal powder. " was the first thing he fed the chick. And when the crop slowed
His next post states "About 1/3 of the crop is still filled with the worm mixture that I fed it about 5 hours ago "
Are you considering the "worm" mixture into this equation?
PS
Okay I had to do the math for this, I hate math. It makes me itch. Hugs Cindy,
The stuck worm mixture was finally gone after about 3 hours. I had fed that only because I did not have anything else at the time the chick hatched. I've completely switched over to handfeed formula now. Its been eating well. There's one other concern, it seems to be always hungry, even when the crop is seemingly full, it keeps asking for more. I am afraid to give it more because I'm afraid I'll overfeed it. I am feeding it warm handfeeding mixture with consistency and temperature recommended in the finchinfo website. Also another thing is that the crop has a patch of discolouration. I'll include it in a picture. Does this mean the chick has sour crop or extended crop?
I am warming up the formula by floating it in a water bath. I am not using a metal container because I thought that would heat the formula excessively.
I am posting a photo of the chick today, I don't know if the patch of grey-brown on its lower crop is an infection or not
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:40 pm
by Babs _Owner
vishnu
I would let the crop completely empty in between feedings. Yep they beg even when they cant fit anymore. BURP!
I have no clue about the brown spot. It does seem to be where the dried worm food was sitting (thats definitely a question for Cindy).
Let the crop empty out, resist the urge to keep chilling and opening the brooder until the next feeding. Over feeding can cause the chick to regurgitate and aspirate. And whatever that worm food was, needs to be cleansed from the crop, if thats what the brown spot is.
Letting the crop completely empty is the best first approach at naturally letting all that stuff digest and clean itself.
That was dried fish food right?
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:22 pm
by cindy
Babs Read and re-read his topic before posting my response... when feeding cold abandoned chicks the first things you do is warm and hydrate them with a broth like mixture of formula and water, never just give water... the solid food in the crop might just be to much at this stage for the bird to handle... yeast could also be a factor as to why the bird is not emptying. I also mentioned ACV or dosing to the beak medistatin. I could advise for a slow or non moving crop to do a crop flush but that is best left to a vet to do.
The guide on FCI clearly states 101 to 104 degrees for formula...some species prefer it a bit warmer depends on the species.
Babies that still have the eyes closed will response to touch, air movement and look as if they are begging even if full, this motion stops once the eyes open.
I never said the birds will be doomed but do know that if a young chick is left on the floor of the cage or not warmed for a long period of time the organs will start to shut down, kidneys will start to fail...if a chick is tossed alive on the bottom of a cage and left cold for some time the body function slows... yeast can set in.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:32 pm
by cindy
the brown spot could be were the worm segments sat... watch the crop and that area, if it becomes red, the spot gets bigger let us know, you may need a baby safe antibiotic... Is the baby passing droppings well?
Usually we see infected crops that are red, inflamed. If you can get medistatin or nystatin it may benefit the baby to have this given, 3 to 4 drops the first day and 2 times a day until done handfeeding. When you mix the medistatin in a container store the mix in a dark bottle or wrap the bottle and store in a dark cabinet...light sensitive and breaks down fast in light.
You can also add a couple of drops of ACV to the formula twice a day to help keep yeasts at bay.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:58 pm
by cindy
sent the belly and recent picture of the crop off to friend to look at for you.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:14 pm
by Babs _Owner
cindy
I've handraised a lot of wildbirds, and last year handraised about 21 finches to healthy adulthood.
The reason I am hesistate in considering medication, and instead going for natural, is this bird is wild. It needs a natural resistance to dirt and bacteria that is stronger than our captive birds encounter.
I also adhere to the guidelines on formula temp (like you), but I use advanced equipment to make sure my finches dont get an accidental crop burn and a candy thermometer can't do that (its slow). You're experienced and he is not. I was trying to guide him in the safest way.
Losses are all a part of wildlife rehab, and making sure the bird doesnt die later in the wild, and has built up a natural immunity to temperature fluctuations, bad diet and other issues is crucial. We both want the bird to be released, and not live in sterility & reliance on medication only to succumb to nature within a week of release.
I think you are knowledgeable and awesome (big hug)
, but I still feel strongly that the bird has to survive in a way nature intended.
If this bird makes it and it has slow crop and has eaten something it cant readily digest in the future.....it cant fly to your medicine cabinet.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:29 pm
by cindy
Babs wrote:
cindy
I've handraised a lot of wildbirds, and last year handraised about 21 finches to healthy adulthood.
The reason I am hesistate in considering medication, and instead going for natural, is this bird is wild. It needs a natural resistance to dirt and bacteria that is stronger than our captive birds.
I also adhere to the guidelines on formula temp (like you), but I use advanced equipment to make sure my finches dont get an accidental crop burn and a candy thermometer can't do that (its slow). You're experienced and he is not. I was trying to guide him in the safest way.
Losses are all a part of wildlife rehab, and making sure the bird doesnt die later in the wild, and has built up a natural immunity to temperature fluctuations, bad diet and other issues is crucial. We both want the bird to be released, and not live in sterility & reliance on medication only to to nature within a week of release.
I think you are knowledgeable and awesome (big hug)
, but I still feel strongly that the bird has to survive in a way nature intended.
If this bird makes it and it has slow crop and has eaten something it cant readily digest in the future.....it cant fly to your medicine cabinet.
The bird is still young and if yeast sets in it will slow the crop, point is to keep the crop healthy to get it past this stage.... in domestic hand raised chicks that have been chilled/tossed alive for some time we are finding it does help get them through to weaning. Formulas are mainly carbs and yeast will feed off the carbs.
As far as a candy thermometer I have used them since I started hand feeding way back in the 80's when we had to make formula before it was available... stirring the formula helps mix it, break the hot spot up...have not burnt a crop yet. do not set the candy thermometer on the bottom of the cup you will get a false warmer reading.
Re: Overfeeding problem! Urgent advice and help required!
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:44 pm
by Babs _Owner
cindy
Yep I agree on the thermometer safety. I used them too in the late 80s. I was just steering himclear of the dangers by using the "mid" temp method. Clinically pampered wild finches or blue jays, or even starlings rarely made it back home.
I feel bad telling him to tough it out, but he took in the wild finch now he has to prep it for natural survival and nature's bacteria. And the true testament of the bird surviving is if it comes back to the yard to roost in a year.