young gouldian feeding younger siblings

[gunard62]

Hello Everyone. I'm going into my second season of breeding Gouldians. My one pair had two babies that fledged last season and currently have four or five this season. They are doing well and will fledge any day now. I've noticed some new behaviors involving the young birds from last seasons clutch. One is feeding it's younger, recent siblings. Is this common and or has anyone noticed this behavior? Thanks.

[lovezebs]

gunard62

Yes, it is fairly common.
I was surprised the first time I saw it as well, but it happens quite often.

I have also had totally unrelated adults feed fledglings from other parents.

[debbie276]

Absolutely normal.
Best of luck

[hanabi]

gunard62

Incredible isn't it, and it can happen within the same clutch too. Just recently I saw a 5-week old Gouldian feeding its sibling, and a few days ago I saw my first cinnamon owl, born on December 13, regurgitate and feed seed to a Star Finch that was a touch younger. That's less than four weeks since hatching and she's already feeding chicks. Sometimes instinct is so strong I guess.

[haroun]

hi , yes it 's a normal and has already happened on other finches clutches seen on zebras and societies

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Hi Ross,

What do cinnamon Owls look like?
You wouldn't happen to have any pictures, would you?

[hanabi]

lovezebs

What do cinnamon Owls look like?
You wouldn't happen to have any pictures, would you?

Hi Elana!

Happy New Year to you and your bunch of feathery friends. Cinnamon Owls are ... gorgeous I do have an image but it is not very good quality; taken through cage wire so focus is off and the image is grainy, but for what it is worth, here she is with her sibling. Cinnamon is sex-linked and her parents are both visually normal so her father must be split cinnamon. Her sibling (visually normal) could be a normal hen (25% chance), a normal cock (25% chance), or a normal split cinnamon cock (25% chance). Only 1 in 4 chicks will be a visually cinnamon hen.

Cheers from a snowy Japan.

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Hi Ross,

Happy New Year to you as well

What a sweet looking bird!

I notice that she has a pink beak and feet as well, which makes this mutation even more attractive to my way of thinking

So if this cutie is bred to a split to cinnamon male, am I to understand, that only one of her chicks will possibly be a cinnamon, and that will be a daughter, with the others being either normals or splits?

[gunard62]

Thanks all for responding...I feel like an overprotective new parent. I have three fledglings out and about now and have a new situation. One of the fledglings went into another unrelated pairs nest...they don't seem to be aggressive towards the baby but it's parents are freaking out. Should I just let nature takes it's course and let the fledgling find it's way out of the nest and back to it's own. Thanks again.

[hanabi]

lovezebs

hanabi

So if this cutie is bred to a split to cinnamon male, am I to understand, that only one of her chicks will possibly be a cinnamon, and that will be a daughter, with the others being either normals or splits?

Not exactly. I understand genetics best using a matrix to display the four possible gene-pair combinations:



The above matrix is for the case of a Normal split Cinnamon parent cock and a Cinnamon parent hen. Genes work in pairs, so (based on your specs of a Normal split Cinnamon cock) the parent cock has a normal gene plus a cinnamon gene. In the matrix above that is displayed in the upper dark blue area. Because this gene is sex-linked, the Cinnamon parent hen holds only 1 Cinnamon gene, the other gene in the pair being the "female" gene W (like the human male's "Y" gene). The parent hen's gene pair are shown in the dark pink to the left.

When combining two pairs of genes (one pair from the cock and one pair from the hen) there are four possible results i.e., four possible genetic combinations that the offspring can take. Those four combinations are shown inside the four cells of the matrix outlined by the thick black border, marked 1, 2, 3,and 4. The upper two cells (1 and 2), coloured light blue, represent *possible* results for cock offspring. Cell 1 takes the Normal gene from the parent cock and a Cinnamon gene from the parent hen. Cell 2 takes Cinnamon and Cinnamon from the parent cock and hen, respectively. The lower two cells marked in light pink are the *possible* results for hen offspring. Cell 3 takes the Normal gene from the parent cock and the female gene W from the parent hen. Cell 4 takes Cinnamon form the parent cock and the female gene W from the parent hen.

So in the end there are four possible offspring outcomes for this combination of Normal-split-Cinnamon parent cock and Cinnamon parent hen:

1. Normal split cinnamon cock
2. Cinnamon cock
3. Normal hen
4. Cinnamon hen.

Each of the possible outcomes are equally likely, i.e., each has a 100% / 4 = 25% chance of occurring. Remember we are dealing with probabilities here, not certainties So if your pair have four chicks they could all be no. 1 Normal/Cinnamon cocks, or all no. 4 Cinnamon hens, or one-of-each of 1, 2, 3 and 4, or any of the other combinations. In the *long term*, over time, you should see each of the four possible outcomes occurring about 25% of the time.

So to answer your question, *on average* you will get 50% Cinnamon chicks and 50% "visually" normal chicks.

Have a confused you now?

[lovezebs]

hanabi

Thanks Ross,

You sound like a teacher, lol , or someone who is well versed in explaing genetics to the uninitiated (of which I am one).

Your step by step explanaition does make it easier to understand, but I did have to read it more than once (seeing as my brain is not as young as it used to be ).
I must say, that the Owl genetics seem 'somewhat' easier to understand, than the convoluted Zebra and Gouldian genetics which leave my poor brain spinning like a top.

Did the Cinnamon mutation originally occure in nature somewhere, or was it accidently or deliberately achieved through selective breeding? Are they the same as the Fawn?

And what pray tell are these two in the picture below???

[lovezebs]

gunard62

If at all possible, I would redirect this baby back to it's parents' nest, if he hasn't found his way out of the other nest, with his parents calling to him.

Are you community breeding several pairs in the same flight or aviary?

[gunard62]

Hi Elana, The fledgling made it back to his own nest. Yes I'm breeding in a large flight cage. 96in long x 24in wide by 45 inches tall. I have 3 pairs with about 7 or nests/nest boxes. The pair that have the fledglings had their first batch in this aviary last year. The other two pair are nesting as well. They all get along pretty well except one young female who is the most aggressive...I think it's because this is her first nest. I also have a proven pair in a separate breeding flight but have yet to see or hear any babies. I have several young adults and am thinking about moving all birds into several large breeding flight cages.

Do you breed.?..I prefer the socialization of the community cages and it is good to see the other finches both related or not caring for the fledglings. I do however see that some are just more aggressive..I will have to keep an eye out for them.

I'm just learning about genetics. I'ts amazing the color combos that comes out of a pair. My pair with the fledglings are a wht headed wht breasted yellow back female and an orange/red headed lilac breasted yellow back male. Their first batch = 2 males, grey/heads with light blue rings on neck fading into the gray heads lilac breasted with yellow backs. This new batch has what looks like 2 diluted yellow with white breasted yellow backs and an olive/blu gray back.
gunn

[lovezebs]

gunard62

Hi Gunn,

Glad to hear that baby made it back to home base safely.

Yes, I used to breed, but haven't in over a year or more.

Gouldian genetics are fascinating and confusing at the same time. If you have questions about that, get a hold of Debbie on the forum, she's very good at, as is Ross (hanabi).

Usually the Redhead birds tend to be the more aggressive, compared to the other mutations.

Personally, I have always allowed the kids to choose their own mates, then removed the bonded pair to a private large cage, to do their thing. I've found that this way they concentrate on breeding , laying, hatching, and raising their babies without any distractions.

Good luck with all the upcoming infants

[debbie276]

My pair with the fledglings are a wht headed wht breasted yellow back female and an orange/red headed lilac breasted yellow back male. Their first batch = 2 males, grey/heads with light blue rings on neck fading into the gray heads lilac breasted with yellow backs. This new batch has what looks like 2 diluted yellow with white breasted yellow backs and an olive/blu gray back.

"wht headed wht breasted yellow back female"
Would be a BlackHead.WhiteBreast.Pastel
Because of the pastel gene the bird can not produce the color black so all black areas are now white.

"orange/red headed lilac breasted yellow back male"
Yellow heads can not be split to Red Head. Being that he is a Lilac Breast he could be a Single Factor Pastel or a Double Factor and have the yellow body color. If all black areas are more grey then white he is a SF. If you are unsure if he is red head or yellow head look at the beak color. Red heads have red tipped beaks while yellow heads have yellow tipped beaks.

"Their first batch = 2 males, grey/heads with light blue rings on neck fading into the gray heads lilac breasted with yellow backs. "
In order to get a black head your male has to be split to black. Sounds like your male and male chicks are Single Factor Pastel. Because of the single Pastel gene all black areas are grey. Also because of the Lilac Breast the body will be yellow in color. If they had a Purple Breast the body color would be a lighter green color.

" This new batch has what looks like 2 diluted yellow with white breasted yellow backs and an olive/blu gray back."
Not sure what you are describing here but if any chicks are White Breasted then you know your male is also split to WB.

So from what you've said your male is a YH/BH.LB/WB.SF Pastel and your hen is BH.WB.Pastel
male, YellowHead split to BlackHead.LilacBreast split to WhiteBreast.SingleFactor Pastel
hen, BlackHead.WhiteBreast.Pastel

Chicks...
males can be
BH/YH or RH/BH/YH, LB/WB or WB and either a SF Pastel or DF Pastel.
hens can be
BH/YH or RH/YH, WB or LB/WB and either pastel or green

If your male is a RH/BH and not a YH/BH then the male chick head colors will be either BH or RH/BH and the hens head colors will be either BH or RH

best of luck