Hybrids/mules

[Rob]

From what I've seen, this can be a controversial topic, but with canaries in particular we'd never have red canaries, or the jaspe mutation, without crossing them with siskins.

What are everyone's thoughts on hybrids/mules? I recently picked up a male green singer, and I've seen some people will cross them with a canary, but many are against this. I have a dutch frill hen and I thought it would be a fun challenge to try to create a green singer frill.

[Sheather]

I think they're cool, be careful selling any green singer hybrids as they are not mules but fertile hybrids which can reproduce with either parent species.

[Icearstorm]

Rob

I think they're fine if the species or mutations hybridized aren't rare in captivity. It's like when people keep birds without having any desire to breed them; I think that's perfectly acceptable unless that person is hoarding rare birds or treating them poorly.

The issue is trying to rehome them. Selling them as hybrids is pretty easy; just tell the buyer. However, it's difficult to judge whether the buyer will be honest when selling them. Close-ring banding the hybrids is the best way to go about this.

Fertile hybrids are the most controversial in my mind. They have all the risks of infertile hybrids, plus the ability to "contaminate" the gene pool of pure species. This is especially an issue when it comes to selling them; just because the person you sell close-banded hybrids to can't sell those birds as pure doesn't mean they won't breed the hybrids and sell their offspring as pure.

Hybridization may be beneficial in some aspects. Hybridization may have contributed to the bloodline of European self society finches, improving markings.
Hybrids between closely-related species of the same genus may result in "hybrid vigor," where hybrids are fitter and may live longer than their parent species. This is the case with most gyrfalcon X peregrine falcon crosses; these birds are generally better hunters and thus more suitable for falconry. They are also fertile hybrids, so selective breeding could be used to improve these hybrids even more. The idea of hybrid vigor may be applicable to aviculture, resulting in longer-lived birds that could be used in displays and nonbreeding aviaries.
Hybridization may also help determine inheritance and gene relationships. This probably isn't useful to aviculture as a whole yet, but could be a useful tool after the field of genetic engineering and sequencing expands.

[Rob]

Thanks Icearstorm

That's a great answer.

[Dave]

Icearstorm, well said!

Hybrids in the plant world is one of the reason we'll have a meal tonight, and tomorrow and the day after that. We can all benefit from hybrids.

Another example: at one time, we thought there were three species of Wolf in North America. Genetic studies have shown that two of the species are really Wolf / Coyote hybrids with varying degree of Coyote genes in the wolf. It happens in nature.

But ---- indiscriminate distribution of hybrids in our hobby can ruin the hobby for everyone, as we'll never be sure about what we have. I wonder if there is a closed ring that says: hybrid, not for breeding ?

[Rob]

I wonder if there is a closed ring that says: hybrid, not for breeding ?

This is exactly what I was wondering. Short of that, I'll have to keep all of the offspring. A leg band wouldn't stop breeding though, just keep the information with the bird. I hope to create a website for my birds, where IDs can be looked up, so that would help as well.

Next question then. With dogs and cats, you can get them fixed. Is there a safe/humane way to make a bird infertile? I don't think I've ever heard of that being done, but that would surely solve the problem.

[Rob]

Found my own answer, apparently it's not safe at all to fix a bird.

[wildbird]

An avian vet once told me that if you fixed a male, it would reverse itself anyway and wouldn't work.

[Dave]

They fix chickens, and the result of a fixed male chicken is a capon. The roosters make better roasting chickens when they are neutered. I don't know how they do that, or how old the bird is when they do it.

[jonvill]

For the record, Green Singer x Canary hybrids/mules are not fertile.

[Rob]

jonvill

I've read that they are, since they're related. Serinus mozambicus and Serinus canaria.

[Sheather]

I'm pretty sure the males are.

[jonvill]

The Green Singer and many of it's close relatives are no longer in the same genus (serinus) as canaries, they are now in the genus Crithagra.

[Icearstorm]

Rob

It seems that fixing birds isn't safe now due to technological limitations, as it is quite difficult to remove all of the reproductive tissues without damaging the blood supply. However, this doesn't mean it will be out of the question in the future. If technology keeps improving at this rate, safely fixing birds might only be a couple decades away, or maybe double the time for it to be financially viable.

[Icearstorm]

wildbird

I just read something that was saying that the reproductive tissue could grow back if any was left over. This, plus the combination of the difficulty of operating without harming the bird, is probably the reason that the gonads would regrow. This may not be an issue if all of the reproductive tract was removed.