Petition for Gouldian Mills

[nixity]

I wish asking for records made a difference but I've learned (and so has Carol, since she went in on me with this purchase last year) the hard way that sellers can easily just fabricate records if you're asking for them in order to make a purchase.

We got I don't even know how many birds.. and shame on me for giving this seller a second chance. I had problems with him once before - but I had been told my many that he was "better now."

Not only did Carol lose more than one of the birds she bought, but after breeding them for the first time this year, she learned things about them that were not evident from the records we got, or disproved the records that were received.

I really think most people can spot red flags.. this seller gave me a red flag after my first experience with him.. but I went against my gut because I saw the pictures and I liked what I saw. I felt fooled into confidence in him because of his willingness to provide the information I asked for.. but it turned out it was all just a big fat farce.

What's worse, I felt responsible for the birds Carol lost because she was relying somewhat on me to help her make the decision on whether or not to buy.

[MLaRue]

I wish asking for records made a difference but I've learned (and so has Carol, since she went in on me with this purchase last year) the hard way that sellers can easily just fabricate records if you're asking for them in order to make a purchase.

We got I don't even know how many birds.. and shame on me for giving this seller a second chance. I had problems with him once before - but I had been told my many that he was "better now."

Not only did Carol lose more than one of the birds she bought, but after breeding them for the first time this year, she learned things about them that were not evident from the records we got, or disproved the records that were received.

I really think most people can spot red flags.. this seller gave me a red flag after my first experience with him.. but I went against my gut because I saw the pictures and I liked what I saw. I felt fooled into confidence in him because of his willingness to provide the information I asked for.. but it turned out it was all just a big fat farce.

What's worse, I felt responsible for the birds Carol lost because she was relying somewhat on me to help her make the decision on whether or not to buy.

I'm curious how does one prove this? What was proved? The only thing I can think of is "split to blue"?

"Not only did Carol lose more than one of the birds she bought, but after breeding them for the first time this year, she learned things about them that were not evident from the records we got, or disproved the records that were received."

I know who you are referring to and I have received more good than bad from this person. I have also received horrible birds from some of the best known breeders of Gouldians. So, I don't think it is any one breeder, some Gouldians just will not thrive in certain environments in my opinion. And, to know some of the best names in the business and their breeding practices just makes me run the other way screaming!

[MLaRue]

The importers and large scale pet chains are the problem in my opinion.

It is said that Birds Express is getting Gouldians from Taiwan - none of the birds are banded and apparently when they get to the brokers they are being medicated as a preventative, these birds are flooding the market through brokers, middle men and the likes also wanting to make a living. Can you imagine the journey these birds have been on and what were their beginnings like? I can't imagine - actually.

The small scale breeder and or hobbyist is in my opinion what educates the general public. I've seen it over and over at the fairs. Most are clueless, they just want something pretty. These breeders and hobbyist are no match for large brokers at these fairs. We put way more money into our birds and in turn expect to sell them at fair prices, lets face it selling our offspring is not going to make us rich nor does it usually cover the cost of their feed bills. These brokers buy cheap and flip the birds cheap. Most of the general public flocks to these brokers for their cheap prices.

It is also in my opinion that these same breeders and hobbyists are the very people that are trying to preserve the good in our birds, breeding the very best.

I honestly don't see how NFSS is going to help because they don't even have the resources or desire? to help bring real bird shows back to the regions. A bird show is the absolutely best place for newbies. They are surrounded by the best in the industry. The shows are not just for conformations but for vitality, health, genetics, progeny, nutrition, and anything else you can think of that is important to bird keeping.

[CandoAviary]

A bird show is the absolutely best place for newbies. They are surrounded by the best in the industry. The shows are not just for conformations but for vitality, health, genetics, progeny, nutrition, and anything else you can think of that is important to bird keeping.

I couldn't agree more! WhenI wanted to become a better dog groomer, I visited the dog shows prior to the dogs being shown. I would browse behind the scenes at all the preparations that the grooming entailed to get them that beautiful... it was here that I learned you can only work with what you have got. That the animal itself needed to be bred with great genes for conformation, coat color, thickness, and texture. This all starts with knowledgable breeders then maintained by proper diets, excercise, and conditioning....
The knowledge I learned from so many of these experts of the show standards enabled me to take this knowledge and apply it in my grooming shop. The bit of education I could pass on to my pet quality customers on diets, brushing, excercise, etc. turned many of itchy, suffering pooches into proud and shining examples of their breed. A little education goes a long way. Hope to be able to do the same at my little bird store.
The bird shows are an excellent place to visit and talk with the breeders about their birds and husbandry practices. They are just too few and far away for many.

I also agree with you. Misty, most people go to fairs looking for the bargain and not necessarily the quality bird I have seen this time and time again. Sadly, most consumers don't know the difference

[cindy]

When renewing a Fish and Game yearly license you must list how your birds are kept, how many and what species, how they are fed and emergency transport in case of evacuation. You must list a vet.

Many times a license is issued without any inspection, any real proof to what you send in...wonder if that is the case for large scale bird mills and large scale brokers...how do they accurately produce proof of what they really have, bought and have in stock? Are they licensed differently...are they routinely inspected and is there documentation that can be viewed or information given out to consumers about any violation and poor conditions?

I have bought birds from one broker who also breeds...my owls came from one two years ago, they came in from Canada. When purchasing they wrote me a bill of sale and I had to fill out paperwork to buy them. Not all do this.

Who checks and follows through on all this? With budget cuts to governmental and state programs and agencies man power is to slim to watch and check out every licensed bird owner.

The only time we hear of anything is in horrible cases of neglect.

[CandoAviary]

The FL wildlife won't come into your home to take count of your birds or even what species you have. They want the information in case of an avian outbreak. It is for notifying you or for tracking the spread of illness. Last noticed I received from them was some 5 years ago when the office sent me a caution on buying any birds that would be shipped from southern California due to an outbreak of NewCastles disease.
They want to know that people will be responsible for their animals in case of catastrophy. When hurricane Andrew hit Homestead, FL
it destroyed a very large reptile facility that swept thousands of boas into the everglades... they now have a serious snake problem in the swamps and neighborhoods. That was a real wake up call for Florida. They aren't too concerned with the birds as they won't likely survive the storm to become a problem to the indigenous birds.
At the bird fairs in Tallahassee and Pensacola the fish and wildlife officers were checking all credentials... needless to say many were given citations for improper or no paperwork. Some were even shut down and asked to leave... I thought one vendor was going to even have his birds confiscated but a friend/vendor came over and claimed they were his birds...NOT.... but they let that man be responsible for the removal of them from the fair. The original vendor was made to leave with many citations and told sternly not to come back...
The fair down in Orlando, well, I have never seen the wildlife inspections nor any wildlife officer ever ...... I have seen the IRS officers making sure the people have their tax ID numbers and are paying their taxes for the birds they sell...... but no inspectors for the animals well being. There are Florida laws as to how many birds can be housed within a cage (so many birds per square inch).... at the Orlando show I would say 90 out of 100 vendors violate this law. They pack the finches in the sell cages like sardines I wish they would bust a few of those broker/breeder vendors down there at this fair and or citation Charles Tillman since he allows vendors to not recognize the laws. Pocket the money and look the oher way. One regul;ar vendor that you know and even recommended to me was one of the worst I have ever seen...on every trip I go down... I have counted 48 finches in one 20 inch cage
Here are a couple of past posts of some of his cages at the Orlando fair... and this was late in the day after many had been sold and removed from the cages This is just like a mini bird mill to me But yet ... hobbiest still buy and support these bird sardine packing jerks. It all starts with each and every hobbiest... yep, the man in the mirror thing
http://finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... r+pictures

http://finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... r+pictures
People will mistreat animals for profit. And as far as the areas wildlife enforcers.....It is like police forces, some areas have better officers than other areas. Some do their jobs while others hang out and eat donuts

I am sure it is the same with the mills. I am also sure most of the mills operate in slack policed areas of the country or the mills have them look the other way with payouts... I mean contributions.

The reason I started this post was because I was hoping to at least get the finch hobbiest on this forum to stop and consider what they are buying and above all... who they are supporting when they go shopping for their finches. Many are unknowingly supporting bird mills and mass importers.... It is almost impossible to not get finch blood on your hands when dealing with brokers, pet stores, breeders, etc.... but we can at least do our educated best

[cindy]

Candace...the officers did make random visits to people advertising large numbers of birds in the paper. We were told if you have more than a single clutch of babies to sell and you advertise you better have your ducks in a row...you may get a knock on the door. They were knocking on doors sometimes posing as customers and visiting your home, that was more than 15 yrs ago. It happened to a few club members in Ft Myers.

I was living in Ft Myers at the time Andrew came through. I do remember the destruction even to the zoo and shops, homes in the area. The reptile and birds lost or flying roaming free. My husband was sent there to help and filmed the destruction from a helicopter....I went and visited shortly after. I also use to live in the area in the 70's that got hit hard. Very sad....amazingly my old home was still standing...it was a block from the bay and off a canal. It was amazing anything survived.

I do realize they (F&G) want to know your plan in case of an outbreak of disease and storm/evacution. The bird clubs down in Ft Myers and were I live now are very good about getting the word out about any disease and barring the "bad" vendors from the shows. One club up here follows strict guidelines and if there is any sign of inhumane treatment the vendor is told and/or not allowed to rent a table. I rarely see what I saw at the Orlando show at our smaller shows here.

The Orlando show needs policing. I was looking for shaft tails, a few of the vendors had filthy cages, sick oily birds, cramped cages...they had what I was looking for but I would not go near their birds. I went home with owls from a good reputable breeder but not shaft tails....very disapointing. It is really bad when my husband sees a bird I am looking for and I tell him to stay away from the cages and I refuse to bu the bird.

A friend of mine does sell at the Orlando show, they do have license inspection and you better have it on you when F&G walks through. F&G has to have seen the deplorable conditions of some of the birds. But it continues.

There are vendors that do have more than required numbers of birds in one cage but routinely change their papers, food and water. If they were to put the correct numbers of birds in each cage the stacks for some of them would require additional tables, and/or the cages would be stacked to the roof!!

They also need to hire a vet to oversee the health of the birds upon the morning of the show...if the birds are ill, living in filth it needs to be written up and the vendor not allowed to sell. It then should be reported by the vet to F&G. It disgusts me, and frankly there is no valid reason for it...they are trying to sell birds at a show, the least they can do is put them in clean cages. Some of the finch cages looked like it had a carpet of dropping and food in the bottom, there were stacks of these.

In all reality...this goes on all the time, not just with birds, but with other animals. It is basically up to us to educate and inform the buyer about buying healthy birds/pets. They aren't going to change the laws, the animal rights groups bring attention to animal rights and inhumane conditions and try their best to help and do a fine job when a mill is bursted. But when one gets knocked down another goes up or they move. Housing, finding funds for confiscated animals/birds is at times difficult and expensive. The issue is if you shut the mill down where are you going to house, how are your going to treat/feed 100's of birds, where will the funding come from? Government and state agencies just do not have that kind of funding.

When a mill is shut down we have breed groups that rally together and have foster homes set up to take the dogs...but with birds you are talking about shutting a mill down and rehoming to a holding center hundreds maybe 1000 of birds until a judgement is made that the can go up for adoption. How will this be done?

I do realize the goal is to get good healthy birds and only have people that are responsible, breeding unrelated and good stock...it is a noble cause but very difficult to control oversee and can be seen as an infringement of peoples' rights.

How we can help is with us spreading the word, the forum and other online sites that were unavailable yrs ago is wonderful for this.

[CandoAviary]

Well said, Cindy. I agree, there will always be abuse/neglect of animals for the sake of money/business and when one shuts down, another starts up.
The best we can do is try and breed healthy, well cared for birds and help any new comer to the finch world our best support and knowledge. Some will appreciate it, others not so much so.
Sounds like you have Central/South West FL covered... I'll take the North West panhandle

I have also found that the shows/fairs that are hosted by actual bird clubs are usually much more conciencous than the individual business person............ Clubs are a great place for newbies and elders alike to get plugged into to learn all they need to know

[cindy]

Candace...the only issue I have to date with the clubs here is that there are not a lot of finch breeders selling at them. Guess I need to build stock and reserve some tables!!!!

[lovemyfinch]

Candace...the only issue I have to date with the clubs here is that there are not a lot of finch breeders selling at them. Guess I need to build stock and reserve some tables!!!!

I think you`re ready Cindy

[cindy]

Janine...it is one of those things I think about but just didn't have the nerve to doyet...I could share a table with friends of mine. They all do a group section mostly hookbills.

[lovemyfinch]

I say go for it Cindy
I haven`t rented a table yet at our show, but this year I think I will. I am planning on setting up a table with each of my little treasures in their very own little travel cage. If the customer wants they can pay an extra $5 and leave with the cage, if not I will have little boxes on hand. (I would personally prefer that either they have a cage or pay the extra for travel cage ) I have been hoarding a lot of my little treasures just to be sure that I will have enough to make it worth while.

Back to the topic

[cindy]

Janine..in a way we are on topic...it is about bringing healthy, good quality birds to the buyers!!!

[CandoAviary]

I say both of you go sell your treasures
I enjoyed the fairs... getting together with vendor friends and eating and chatting all night... watching the buyers approach the table with that look of WOW, look at those (that was my reation at Jan's table).... and the chance to talk with people that were passionate about the same thing as me Not to mention all the shopping I did
The things I didn't enjoy was I found it too hard to travel to most shows for the weekend, most of the ones around here are a two day event and we usually traveled the day before so it turned into 3 long days. It was just too much to leave the crazy bird house and breeders, not to mention Hubby's business. Plus I didn't want to sell the birds for the cheap prices that many vendors sold for nor did I care for the stress/exposure that it caused the birds. If they had fairs closer to my location and they were one day events I am sure it would be much easier on me and the birds.

Janine, I had small cages that I paid like $3.00 for and they came free with the bird. It had 2 cups in it that held food and water and I would throw in a millet spray. I also sent a care bag with seed/pellet that they were use to eating with instuctions on how to gradually mix it to the diet of their choice so as to not make the bird go off seed. Also enclosed was a bag of my mineral grit mix and a print out of my care sheet... with many tips on stuff like temps, teflon, etc. also links to my web site and many other sites for them to learn from.
All this cost little in respect to the $$ I got per bird so I sent the care package with travel cage for free. I also felt the proper education was worth the time to make up the goody bags

[lovemyfinch]

I really like you ideas Candace.
I just might let them take the cage with the bird (at least that way I am guaranteed that my little treasures will not be sitting in a box for 6 hours )
The idea of a care package is very nice as well, I think I will also add a smidge of Vitalize in a little baggy, just to make sure that the stressful transition will be easier.
These are the little cages that I will be sending them home in, except the top is rounded.
http://www.hanzycanada.com/details.php?recordID=BA-10