Please help me a bit, with zebra genetics

[nelloyello11]

Okay, some questions for some of you experienced breeders out there. I am just getting into zebra mutations and intend to start doing some breeding in the near future. I took genetics classes way back when, but some of the terminology is different than "laboratory" and textbooks genetics, and a little different from human genetics, which I'm most familiar with. So I've done a lot of reading online and have added Garrie Landry's zebra book to my wishlist (hopefully I get it for my birthday). I think I have it mostly down (as much as zebra genetics can be "gotten," that is!). Here goes!
1- only males can be split for the sex-linked traits - fawn, CFW, lightback colors. (Are there others besides those three?)
2- both males and females can be split for autosomal traits
3- split is the same thing as heterozygous (1 copy of each of 2 different alleles for the same gene)
4- if a finch is split, its phenotype will be that of the dominant allele
5- in order to show the recessive trait, a finch must have 2 copies of the recessive allele (homozygous)
6-if a parent's phenotype is that of a recessive trait (for example, crested), and an offspring's phenotype is the dominant trait, that offspring must be split for the recessive trait (i.e. offspring carries that recessive allele)
7- if both parents are homozygous for a recessive trait, then all offspring should also be homozygous for it, unless they exhibit another mutation that cancels it out
8- the only way that a recessive trait can come out in offspring is if both parents have at least one copy of the recessive allele, either visually or split, and the offspring receives one copy from each parent

Okay so that's how I understand it. If any of those points are incorrect, or you know of a way there could be exceptions to the rules, please let me know. Feel free to comment on just one or all!

[Justin-2-finches]

That is pretty much it.

Only thing is...

6-if a parent's phenotype is that of a recessive trait (for example, crested),

Crested is not ressesive. It is a dominant trait.

You haven't mentioned the dominant trait, (Blackfaced, fawncheek, dominant silver and crested) all of which only need one gene to show it.

Black cheek conflicts with Florida fancy because florida fancy is trying to turn every thing white which eliminates every thing that the black cheek is trying to do.

This is great for planning combinations...
http://zebrafinch.info/colours/genex.asp

I love zeb's and genetics, there are some beautiful mutations out there. Look forward to seeing yours soon.

[nelloyello11]

Crested is not ressesive. It is a dominant trait.

Ah, thank you for that correction.

You haven't mentioned the dominant trait, (Blackfaced, fawncheek, dominant silver and crested) all of which only need one gene to show it.

Yup, that part I did know, just didn't think to put it down!

And I do remember reading that bit about BC and FF conflicting somewhere. Will keep it in mind, as I am just starting with BC.
I have the genetics forcaster bookmarked, but I wanted to make sure I had the basics down first!

Thanks very much!

[nelloyello11]

So if I have a pair of normals, and they produced two silver hens. Given that both parents are normal grey, is there anything the silvers could be than Recessive Silver? They do not quote fit the textbook description of RS (they actually look more like Florida Silvers), but I know there can be some variation among recessive silvers.
Here is a picture of the two young hens

IMG_9510 by Nelloyello11, on Flickr
Although it is tough to see, the girl on the left has no tear mark.
I am really interested in finding some males for them, but want to figure out exactly what they are first....
Any ideas?

[cindy]

Oh...don't forget pied and penguin....when breeding never put a pied with a penguin...you loose the orange in the cheek patches turning the male's cheek white!! Just thought I will add that!!!

[nelloyello11]

Oh...don't forget pied and penguin....when breeding never put a pied with a penguin...you loose the orange in the cheek patches turning the male's cheek white!! Just thought I will add that!!!

Good to know, Cindy! I will keep that in mind. Is this combo not recommended because it produces poor quality birds or because it's not visually pleasing?

[Nagdabit]

(they actually look more like Florida Silvers) Although it is tough to see, the girl on the left has no tear mark.
Any ideas?

The lack of a tear mark causes me to lean more towards the Florida Silver. We've had a number of instances wherein a NG male has produced a SF/FF hen. On most of those occasions however, the male, while appearing to be Normal Gray is inactuality also a SF/FF. Roy Beckham makes note of such males on his Florida Fancy page on efinch.

http://www.efinch.com/species/ffzeb.htm

If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page there is a picture of one such male. While the guy he has on there is a noticeably lighter shade of gray (with a dilution of his black markings), we've had males that displayed only very slight color differences. So subtle that we didn't even notice until they reproduced and the results showed up in their offspring.

One additional thing to remember with Zebra genetics is that they are so good at hiding splits and carrying recessive traits that they may stay hidden for generations, and all of a sudden pop up out of the blue. So despite your best efforts of planned breeding, be prepared for a fair share of surprises. That's why everyone says breeding Zebras is like a box of chocolates...

Oh and for what it's worth, someone on the Yahoo Zebra forum made a casual remark the other week that they had been told that the Recessive Silver mutation had basically been replaced by SF/FF (Florida Silvers) No one else chose to comment further so I have no idea as to the validity of her claim.

[nelloyello11]

(they actually look more like Florida Silvers) Although it is tough to see, the girl on the left has no tear mark.
Any ideas?

The lack of a tear mark causes me to lean more towards the Florida Silver. We've had a number of instances wherein a NG male has produced a SF/FF hen. On most of those occasions however, the male, while appearing to be Normal Gray is inactuality also a SF/FF. Roy Beckham makes note of such males on his Florida Fancy page on efinch.

http://www.efinch.com/species/ffzeb.htm

If you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page there is a picture of one such male. While the guy he has on there is a noticeably lighter shade of gray (with a dilution of his black markings), we've had males that displayed only very slight color differences. So subtle that we didn't even notice until they reproduced and the results showed up in their offspring.

Oh and for what it's worth, someone on the Yahoo Zebra forum made a casual remark the other week that they had been told that the Recessive Silver mutation had basically been replaced by SF/FF (Florida Silvers) No one else chose to comment further so I have no idea as to the validity of her claim.

I have read and re-read that efinch page many times, in my quest to figure out what I have. One of my hens looks exactly like the male pictured, except without the cheeks and flank markings. She has the lacing on the wings and the diluted tail bars etc. Because of that, I was REALLY leaning toward SF/FF, but just didn't think it made sense, genetically speaking.
But you said you have seen Florida Silvers with very little difference from normal greys?
Here is a picture of their parents:

IMG_9534 by Nelloyello11, on Flickr
I have only had them since Christmas, so I have little to compare them to. Do you see anything that might indicate he is a FS?
Thanks for your response!

[Vargur]

To me he look very silvery grey.
He has also very light breast bars.
The hen is also very light grey colored.
And they have both very thin tear mark.

Here is a normal grey birds to compare

Zebbies - allar kvk seldar sem eru á þessari mynd by Elma_Ben, on Flickr

[Nagdabit]

Do you see anything that might indicate he is a FS?

It's tough to say without another Normal Gray to compare him to, but I would agree with Vargur, his coloring and markings do appear to be ever so slightly lighter. And in the case of a couple of our SF/FF boys, that can be all it takes. Later on this weekend if I have time I'll go through some of our pics and see if I have any you can observe for comparison.

After going back and looking at the picture of your male again, couldn't help but notice some light streaking in his side. Not sure if that's just the camera toying with us, but that also could be an indicator of SF/FF as well.

[nelloyello11]

Vargur, I can definitely see a difference from the picture you posted. Two thiings that jump out at me are that the orange cheeks and chestnut flanks are lighter on my male, and that the male in your picture has a much whiter tummy than mine does. My male's is more of a buff color than white.

Nagdabit, The streaking you see in his side is really there, not just a trick of the light. A couple of his flight wing feathers have white specks just on the tip, so I toyed with the ppossibility he might have pied in him as well. But maybe it was just the SF/FF coming through.

[Justin-2-finches]

I agree it definately does look different to a normal grey.

But as for the specks on the tips of his wing feathers, i dont think that is pied but could be a sign of sf/ff as well

[nelloyello11]

Thanks for the input and help everyone!