New pair of pieds are a mystery to me

[love4finches]

They look like they are split a few ways. I believe they are a pair and each one has only one teardrop under each eye, both the male and female. Where I got them I was told they were not related but they are too similar in the odd coloring, teardrop and succession of band numbers. I bought 4 and two didn't make the trip. They passed in transite. I won't be buying again this way. Is anyone willing to guess as to what they might be split to? I thought I had a pair of pieds once and they turned out to be Penguins. I'm too new to be sure of anything right now.

[finchmix22]

Wow, so sorry you lost two of them. How were you transporting them? I'd let the breeder know about the two and maybe you can get another pair? These two do look pied, but there are also orange and/or fawn coloring? It is difficult to tell, but I bet Cindy will know.

[love4finches]

I did call the breeder and had to send pics of dead ones. He said that he would send 2 more but only getting 1/2 alive, I'd rather get a refund.

If these are splits to orange and/or fawn, what color babies could I get? When you say orange, which is what I see, is that orange breast?

[finchmix22]

Yes, orange breast, fawn or maybe even light back. Cindy is the best at identifying mutations in zebras. I'm sure she'll post soon. There is a zebra mutation forcaster on several websites. However, zebras are notorious for surprising their owners with some gene that shows up which was not able to be seen physically. So, you never know what you'll get exactly. With pied, all chicks with be pied, but they can show other features too. Good Luck.

[cindy]

The one standing on the basket with all the orange may have Orange Breast in the genetic Same with the bottom picture. I would say they are pied/ to possible OB. With pieds it is often difficult to tell what they carry in their makeup. These oddly look related in my opinion. If they are not related and you breed these the offspring will most likely be more pied than the parents.

If you have penguins that are not pied and want to keep the penguin line do not introduce pied into the line, it will ruin the orange in the penguin look.

[love4finches]

The one standing on the basket with all the orange may have Orange Breast in the genetic Same with the bottom picture. I would say they are pied/ to possible OB. With pieds it is often difficult to tell what they carry in their makeup. These oddly look related in my opinion. If they are not related and you breed these the offspring will most likely be more pied than the parents.

If you have penguins that are not pied and want to keep the penguin line do not introduce pied into the line, it will ruin the orange in the penguin look.

Cindy,

Honestly (lol) I don't understand alot when getting into detailed genetics. I will agree definately that the 4 are definately a clutch. Think about it. Who bands different clutches with 4 sucessive numbers. Generally you band same color and sucessive numbers with one clutch at a time or am I the only one that does that. I am very disappointed in the fact that I was lied to and 2 died and what's left is a brother and sister.

I don't have penguins anymore. I have a pair of greys I noticed this am that are split to pieds and I was going to separate them cause I'm not sure if they are related. It's a mess. I'm beginning to think all my pairs are related too. However, I found two eggs in the nest and now I'm leaving everything alone. when in doubt, do nothing.

I have alot of thinking to do as to what to do. I'm having babies that aren't making it, have odd growth....just odd. Can't explain it. Don't get me wrong alot of the babies are normal but there are too many not that makes me think there is inbreeding going on here. Never would have noticed cause they all had one clutch and all babies were perfect. Gave the babies away, of course, l and now all I have is all the babies from their second clutch and don't know what to do just in general. Put alot of money into all this but didn't get birds from reliable places or breeders that came highly recommended. I could go on forever here but my post is getting too long.

[love4finches]

Cindy,

reread your post. If they had babies why would they be more pied? If both parents are /OB will any of the babies come out OB anything? Will the babies eventually through breeding lose the OB look and eventually be able to have pieds with just the white chest? Is that ideally what I want to have happen?

[finchmix22]

I believe the pied gene is dominant to other colorings, so it take priority. Therefore, the offspring would be pied times pied! That makes them really strongly pied. As Cindy said, if you want to keep the orange color, you need to breed them with a zebra that is not pied. I would want to breed them with a orange breast zebra or something like that to reduce the pied impact. You have to think about what you want. If you think they're related, get zebras with orange breast or some other mutation, so you can outcross and not continue the inbreeding. I hope you can get them on a good breeding track.

[cindy]

Cindy,

reread your post. If they had babies why would they be more pied? If both parents are /OB will any of the babies come out OB anything? Will the babies eventually through breeding lose the OB look and eventually be able to have pieds with just the white chest? Is that ideally what I want to have happen?

I don't need to reread my post, if you breed pied to pied (pied is recessive), the babies will have more pied than the parents, it is like putting more white into the mix, it over takes the mutations colors and washes the offspring eventually whiter with each generation. The pairing of pied to pied you gradually loose color in the offspring and get white pieds. If you want color breed each bird separately back to a colored bird. Pied acts as an eraser of color.

One parent being a pied may give you splits, two pied parents give you offspring that are more pied than the parents.

Your hen has a possible OB (also recessive) gene, most likely a split to gene passed down from a parent, through generations of pied to pied breeding she has little of it to show now. Her offspring will mostly likely have less, if the offspring breed with another pied then their offspring will have less color and more pied white and so on. Every generation of pied to pied breeding erases more color in the next generation until several generations later you end up with all white birds....white pieds

http://www.efinch.com/species/piedzeb.htm

Personally, if a bird is split to pied with white in the wing edges a little on the head but carries strong traits from both parents I will use it in my breeding stock. I will not buy full pieds since to me they can ruin the colors I am working towards.

[love4finches]

Cindy,

I had to laugh and I guess I should apologize for wording my first sentence very badly.

What I was saying was that I reread your post. I wasn't inferring you should reread it cause I thought you misspoke.

I am so sorry. But I have to admit, you have made me very mindful that when I write, I know what I mean. Others only read without emotion, concern, confusion......well, I hope you get the idea.

Anyway, I didn't understand the pied to pied but do now!! Yeah!! I finally am getting this very, very slowly. I'm sorry I'm not smarter. Again thank you, Cindy and again...I'm sorry if I insulted you. I can be dense.....as my daughter says.....most of the time. Love you all.

Lyn

[cindy]

Lyn, I assure you we have all been there, learning the mutations are tricky. I, after all this time am still learning.

I thought about this and maybe it will help....

your bird showing the OB has two rececessive genes at play

OB and pied

the other, the male made not have the OB if not related or if related did not inherit it

so let's call him pied

so here is the mix, bear in mind that two of the same reessive genes fro each parent, in this case the pied will over power the single reessive gene (OB) from the mom.

female pied OB and male pied this is what you will get

100% Pied/Orange breasted

Now since the offspring will be more heavily pied than the parents beause you used two pieds the traits to see and find OB splits on your birds will be difficult because the pied may mask it visually. The offspring still carry the genes but it most likely will not visually show if at all.

[love4finches]

Cindy,

Thank you for the explanation. I understand it. A question from me, of course.
OB is recessive, right? If recessive, when you put two birds together that are split to OB why wouldn't any of the babies have orange on them or actually come out OB?

Isn't that like to people that have brown eyes, if they each have a gene that carries blue (recessive) eyes, can't one of the kids have blue eyes ever, meaning that the pieds could ever have OB chicks?

How would I try to get OB birds with what I have? Would I need to get another colored bird? I would use one of the babies or split the pair?

I know, I know, such a pain I am!

[cindy]

It is kind of like this....if the birds were both split OB and say gray not pied yes then two split to OB will produce some OB visual young....

(Carlos Matos) http://zebrafinch.info/colours/genex.asp# genetic calculator will help you...play around with the possibilities and it helps you understand how the genetics work...ertain genes are reessive, dominant and sex linked....there are outlines of each there....the designer section helps you see a possibility of mutation combinations, it is not always exact but it is lose.

Two NG/OB parents yeild this....
50% Normal/Orange breasted
25% Normal
25% Orange breasted

Were as the male in you case is not showing any OB traits visually so it is hard to say he has the gene (I am going based on visual here....not every chick in a clutch inherit alls the genes the other chicks do, as you can see from above)

Since one is visual and the other not based on visual traits only...you will get 100 % pied split to OB...the pied may erase the color, sort of blocks what is in the genes from appearing visually. Honestly, the only true way to see if any other traits and if the father is carrying the gene either split and visually and it is hidden by the pied is breed them. The orange you see in dad's cheek and flank are normal for males.

Breeding them will give further clues to what else may hide in their genes. To me the male looking at him appears pied, normal.

If he is split to pied/ob as well then this is your outcome

50% Pied /Orange breasted
25% Pied
25% Orange breasted Pied (this means you may get a visual OB but it will also be pied and it may only show bits of orange.

if mom is pied/ob and dad is not and just pied

100% pied/ob....moslty white bird due to two recessive gened parents to pied.

it is all a guessing game if you did not raise the birds and the only way to tell is to find out from the breeder the bakground or breed them to see what you get. If you are working towards OB then get an ON full or split and pair it to the mom instead of the pied male.

[love4finches]

Cindy,
You are great! I actually understand everything you said. I've been doing alot of reading for hours and I woke this am and know how sometimes you are reading and trying to learn something and just don't get it. Then you wake up next day and all of a sudden everything clicks. I had one of those moments this am and just read your reply and totally get it. I think I am over the blocked hump I've had for a long time and am understanding and really learning now.

Thank you and everyone who has supported and answered all of my questions at nausium. I'd be sick of me already. You all have been so patient that now when I ask a question, I'll actually understand your answers as I'm reading them.

Will let you all know how this pair of pieds work out when (I'm an optimist) they have babies. That should take away some mystery of some of the genetics. I know it will take a couple of clutiches and pairing future babies to see if I can start a genetics table on this pair.

Lyn