blue head gouldian???

[bernd76287]

I dont know what the pastell gene does with the lutino gene! I have seen a Lutino single factor pastel cock (coming from belgiae) without any melanines!
So I see no reason whether the pastel factor should make a darker head. But who knows.
Somewhere I read that the feathers of the BH Gouldians are longer. Perhaps this could be a key to understand the blueheads.
If I had not seen the Cuban blueheads I should have said such coloring isn't possible!!!???

[CandoAviary]

Somewhere I read that the feathers of the BH Gouldians are longer. Perhaps this could be a key to understand the blueheads.

In the book I mentioned previously and in the same Chapter 19 , Dr. Brush and Dr. Seifried studies point out that the black head gouldian head feathered barb's projections are finer and are not flatten as in the red and yellow headed birds. Another interesting point..

The pigments of black heads are contained in much finer barbs giving them an almost velvetly look. Maybe this smooth blue has to do with the combination of the stuctual occurance and the black heads unique festher stucture. You have a very good point , bernd

Tiffany, would you think the structual feathers could modify/mutate just like pigment mutations can? Also what has me stumped is if a bird that is not absorbing the lutein and astaxanthin in a green bird now is a blue bird. So is this blue due to a lack of pigment or is it the structual only color? If the blue can be so vivid on a green ground bird, then it seems that blue could be even more vivid on a Black head bird...

[CandoAviary]

I read a reference to the lost mutaions ..THE GRASSFINCH, 1980, Vol.4, No. 6 pp 6-8 described as a green headed variety. Leonard Webber bred 6 birds that varied from green, to green on black, to a copper metallic hue with green. Of course there was never a mention of these birds upon reaching adult feathering....
Wonder if these were similar or just a melanistic gliche....that would explain why this "mutation" disapeared

[nixity]

Tiffany, would you think the structual feathers could modify/mutate just like pigment mutations can? Also what has me stumped is if a bird that is not absorbing the lutein and astaxanthin in a green bird now is a blue bird. So is this blue due to a lack of pigment or is it the structual only color? If the blue can be so vivid on a green ground bird, then it seems that blue could be even more vivid on a Black head bird...

I think the genes controlling feather structure could, for sure..
The blue on a blue bodied bird is because of the metabolic pathway in the body for B-carotene being "disturbed" due to the mutation itself.. but yes, it is a structural color (and the carotenes can't be deposited).. still, blue is never "pigmented" in bird feathers.. it is always structural.

[bernd76287]

Tiffany, would you think the structual feathers could modify/mutate just like pigment mutations can? Also what has me stumped is if a bird that is not absorbing the lutein and astaxanthin in a green bird now is a blue bird. So is this blue due to a lack of pigment or is it the structual only color? If the blue can be so vivid on a green ground bird, then it seems that blue could be even more vivid on a Black head bird...

I think the genes controlling feather structure could, for sure..
The blue on a blue bodied bird is because of the metabolic pathway in the body for B-carotene being "disturbed" due to the mutation itself.. but yes, it is a structural color (and the carotenes can't be deposited).. still, blue is never "pigmented" in bird feathers.. it is always structural.

As far as I have understood and assume there must be 3 things come together in order to get a blue head gouldian:
1. It must be a black head one
2. There must be melanin's rests on the head
3. The structure of the head feathers must be changed
Further question for me is: If the black is very deep the expression of the blue is not so good!? Therefore this color is not (?) the same as BH, RH or YH!? You must do selective breeding to get the blue on the head and you can not fix the color as you can with other (real) mutations.
For example: A lutino Gouldian is a Luino or he is not. A blue head Goludian is less or more a blue head Gouldian!???

[bugaboo5]

I wish I could blow the pictures up but they're static size :/

I tried blowing the pictures up if it helps. All picture credits go to Juan Farrat of course.

Other older 2010 pictures can be found here as well:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1105832458 ... lashalbum#

[nixity]

As far as I have understood and assume there must be 3 things come together in order to get a blue head gouldian:
1. It must be a black head one

Yes - and I also believe for the most part it requires SF Yellow genetics..
These pictures blown up look quite strange to me, I'd like to see more..

2. There must be melanin's rests on the head

Agreed..

3. The structure of the head feathers must be changed

Not necessarily but possibly - the structure of the black head feathers is already much different than red or orange, and this inherent structural difference might predispose light reflection for the blue spectrum, like I said before - once Juan came out with these birds, many other breeds all over the US started popping up with these birds but had never paid much attention to it or noticed it before.

Further question for me is: If the black is very deep the expression of the blue is not so good!? Therefore this color is not (?) the same as BH, RH or YH!?

I'm not sure what you mean as not the same as BH RH or YH - base is BH, the blue isn't pigmented but is either structural or both structural and iridescent.

You must do selective breeding to get the blue on the head and you can not fix the color as you can with other (real) mutations.
For example: A lutino Gouldian is a Luino or he is not. A blue head Goludian is less or more a blue head Gouldian!???

I think at this point a better concept is perhaps a modification, not necessarily a mutation. E.g. - Seagreen
I guess meaning that it is likely a modification of the BH color, in that what is modified is possibly the feather structure?

[CandoAviary]

I thought the blue in the picture looked funny also... especially the blue on the wing. But I have noticed that blue has come out in the same spot on some of my normal green backs. Maybe this is a precursor to the 'noble blues' and the blue heads? A pigment change in part of the green back bird. Kind of like the pied effect where the melanins are abscet. But in the case of goulds, with the absence of the dark pigment and the presence of the strucual color effect then these light (pied) areas are showing blue??? Am I making any sense... I know pieing isn't the term I am looking for but the abscence of melanins....
Seems all the green with blue birds that I have seen in pictures start with the blue in the same area of the wing/back. Do you think this blue on the green backs are also a result of the same modification that is happening with the blueheads??? What do you think is happening in these noble blues to get some partial blue coloring? I suspect it is the same modification, just in a different area, whatever that modification is
Here's a picture of one of mine showing this blueing on wing/back.




noble blue on belgian site
http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/engoulm22.htm

[nixity]

I thought the blue in the picture looked funny also... especially the blue on the wing. But I have noticed that blue has come out in the same spot on some of my normal green backs. Maybe this is a precursor to the 'noble blues' and the blue heads?

I see this in so many normals that I don't really think it's abnormal or uncommon - Some do have it more than others, definitely.

A pigment change in part of the green back bird. Kind of like the pied effect where the melanins are abscet. But in the case of goulds, with the absence of the dark pigment and the presence of the strucual color effect then these light (pied) areas are showing blue??? Am I making any sense... I know pieing isn't the term I am looking for but the abscence of melanins....

It would be a localized reduction in lutein I guess, I think that's what the Erythrura site says about the Nobles etc...

Seems all the green with blue birds that I have seen in pictures start with the blue in the same area of the wing/back. Do you think this blue on the green backs are also a result of the same modification that is happening with the blueheads??? What do you think is happening in these noble blues to get some partial blue coloring? I suspect it is the same modification, just in a different area, whatever that modification is

Dunno, that yellow bird on his page is the first "blue head" I've seen that really has the blue coloring throughout the wing as well.
I didn't go to the Erythrura site to look but I THINK on there it says it's probably the result of a localized reduction in Lutein, if it doesn't say that, that would be my guess either way.. (for noble blues)
Dunno if it's related or not

[nixity]

Just double checked - it does say a localized reduction in Lutein, also says the male pictured molted out the blue color.. which means it's not a true mutation because it doesn't "remain" (like most of the melanistic goulds)..

[CandoAviary]

Thanks, My fellow hasn't had his second molt so he may loose his blue also. I plan on keeping a couple that have more of the blue to see what happens after the next molt. I really like the blue shading so I hope they keep it If not they are keepers anyway

[nixity]

I have noticed that a lot of birds raised outdoors have more of this blue coloring than most... ;) Wonder if you paired your little stud outside in the crazy bird house with a nice little hen what might happen..

[bernd76287]

Thank all for the good ideas and informations.
I do think in the moment(?!) that the blue heads are modifications increasable by selective breeding.

In Germany the are normal green gouldians with more blue-green backs and others with more yellow-green backs. Some people believe that the more blue-geens are split to blue. This is not true!

This days I recognized this cock. As you can see even the color of the beak shows reduced red and the green of the bird is more blue-green. The brother has the same color!? What ever this means interesting after all!

[CandoAviary]

Wow bernd, He is very unique and striking. The bright green and then the blue/sea green? .. just beautiful!.... very interesting genes you have going on over there
Have you experienced any of the Blue heads on your single factor black heads?

[CandoAviary]

I have noticed that a lot of birds raised outdoors have more of this blue coloring than most... ;) Wonder if you paired your little stud outside in the crazy bird house with a nice little hen what might happen..

This bird has not made it outdoors ...yet. He was born in the 20 X 10 breeding building, last clutch of 2010
http://finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7 ... n+gouldian
He was moved to the Crazy bird house sometime around March .... he is in an indoor flight as the outdoor flights are pretty full.... waiting for the outdoor buch to go the the store... then these, along with other late 2010 and 2011 youngster will go out there for fun in the sun while they mature.... then the best will come in for breeding (though now I will breed in a room in the crazy birdhouse that has 2 small window but artificial lighting...just regular flourescents. The 20 x 10 building has become the quarantine facility for the birds bought and going to the store)... So sunlight wasn't a factor in this fellow... yet
What would you pair him with?
The sister who has a soft blue overcast to her feathers(still haven't gotten a decent picture..I'll try this week) I will pair also. Bernd says he heard to breed his seagreen hens with DF silver cock. Says that the seagreen is dominant over blue. I have 2 DF silvers that I bought from that retiring breeder but they are old... band 2005 and 2006. I got a couple of chicks from them this past year but they were obviously poor performers..... Maybe I should pick up some young silver blood for these??? What do you think, Tiffany?