I managed to get to your pictures...
First link looks like a Black Head, White Chest, Blue Back female.
This pic :http://www.finchforum.com/gallery/displ ... m=1&pos=29
Looks like a Salmon Head, Purple Breast, "Dilute" Blue back male to me. AKA Pastel, AKA Powder...
Meaning he has 2 blue chromosomes, and 1 Green Z and 1 Yellow Z chromosomes. ( The Blue gene is not located on the sex "Z or W" chromosomes).
Your right it's very hard to tell from the picture quality, but I'm my basis is the grey coloring in the wings that you can kind of make out. A better picture I might be able to tell for sure.
Anyway, I'm sure the breeder has mentioned this, but I want to caution you not to breed the two birds together. If you want to produce blue babies, you'll need to get two "split for blue" birds. Blue to Blue breeding is widely discouraged in the Gouldian community because the chicks are weaker and many don't survive. It's better to introduce "stronger genes" via breeding a split for blue with a blue back.
So in your case you'd need a split for blue male and a split for blue female from a different blood line.
Hope that helps clear up your confusion.
ok question on blue gouldians *Powder and dilute *
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rottielover
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Fancie Flight
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yes I know not to breed them together, although many do here because they want the true blue hopwever a very high mortality rate is involved.
se ehe looks red to me to although NOT as red in the camera and she says absolutely black head, sigh. lol
and hes bluer than the pics show, i took about 100 pics NO JOKE he would not hold still, lol
se ehe looks red to me to although NOT as red in the camera and she says absolutely black head, sigh. lol
and hes bluer than the pics show, i took about 100 pics NO JOKE he would not hold still, lol
" Nothing is harder to do gracefully than getting off your high horse"
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rottielover
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Ravyn
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From what I understand of genetics in gouldians, if that bird is showing any black on him at all, and the breeder is insisting he is a black head...then his head would be black, period. That his head is salmon colored and he is showing black in his plumage states quite obviously that he is a redheaded bird, not a blackheaded one.
Anyone with more experience, please...correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyone with more experience, please...correct me if I'm wrong.
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rottielover
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Ravyn
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From what I was understanding, the breeder was telling Fancie that her male (which appears to be salmon headed) was absolutely a 'black headed powder blue'. There's no question the hen is a black head, but unless I'm horridly mistaken about gouldian genetics, that male is not a black head at all, but a redhead diluted by the blue genes to make a salmon-head. If he was a black head, he'd have a black head identical to the hens.I have a male blue witha salmon colored head, Hes actually called a
Black headed, powder blue the breeder says,
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Hilary
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We're mixing terms, which confuses people. As I understand it (correct me somebody if I'm wrong) "dilute" and "pastel" are the same thing. Depending on the genetics, HE can be visually a duller green or a duller blue. If he's single-factor yellow plus blue you get the pastel blue. Single-factor yellow without the blue and a purple breast you get a pastel/dilute green. Single-factor yellow with a white breast you get a visually yellow bird. My Charlie is a black headed (so head is gray), purple breasted pastel/dilute blue.
Hilary
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FeatherHarp
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rottielover
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FeatherHarp
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rottielover
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Well you saw the graphics of the "tick-tack-toe" boards right? (actually only has 4 quadrants)...
Anyway, remember that we all get our genetic makeup from our parents. Half our chromosomes from our Father and the other half from our mother.
With humans, the "sex" chromosomes (the genes that determine if your going to be male or female) are denoted as X and Y. If your XX then your female and if your XY you are male.
It's slightly different with birds. In birds the sex chromosomes are denoted as Z and W. It's also the reverse of humans, if your ZZ you are male and if your ZW then your female (in birds).
In gouldians people have figured out that the genes that control head and back color's are on these sex chromosomes. You can think of a chromosome as a puzzle board, where each piece of the puzzle controls a trait that you'll see in your birds. With the Z chromosome there are two puzzle pieces we are specifically interested in. Head color and "back" color.
So on the Z gene, there are two genes (puzzle pieces) that control the birds head color and the birds back color.
Take the head color slot, there are only 2 pieces that fit here, Red Head or Black head (I'll get into how you get yellow heads later in the post, keep reading). Furthermore, the Red Head piece is so bright, that it will overpower the black head piece in any bird that has two Z chromosomes (males). This is called "dominant", meaning that if you have a male bird with his two Z chromosomes (puzzle boards) and one puzzle board has a Red Head piece and other other has a black head piece then the bird will have a red head when you look at him thru the cage bars.
Now take the back color puzzle piece slot, there are only two pieces that can fit in this slot, Green back and Yellow back (again I'll get into how you get a blue back bird later in the post). Now with these puzzle pieces Green is incompletely dominant over the yellow piece. It's bright, but not so bright as to block out the yellow completely in any bird that has 1 Green and 1 yellow (male remember cause only males have two Z's). This is how you get Dilute birds, because the bird has 1 green piece and 1 yellow piece and the green can't quite "block out" the yellow completely. So instead of a bright green back male bird, you get a bird with a duller looking back, hence the term "dilute".
Continuing on, birds, like humans have more than just our sex chromosome puzzles that make us who we are and what we look like. On these other chromosomes (puzzles) we find the blue back puzzle piece slot and on yet another puzzle we find the Yellow (orange) head puzzle piece slot.
Yellow Head - There are only two puzzle pieces that fit in this slot, Yellow head, or "normal" (normal meaning does not contain the code to get a yellow head). The interesting thing about the yellow head puzzle pieces is that you have to get one of them from your mother and one of them from your father in order for that trait to show. The other interesting thing about the yellow head piece, is that you need to have a Red Head puzzle piece over in the Z chromosome in order to display your yellow head. If you have a bird with black head puzzle pieces then your going to get a bird with a black head and yellow tipped beak. (Isn't this cool and fun!)...
Blue Backs - Similar to the yellow head, the blue back puzzle pieces only fit into another chromosome (puzzle) that is not part of the Z or W puzzles. Again there are two fitting pieces, blue back and normal. And again you have to have one each from your mom and your dad in order to display a blue back. The interesting thing is that like the head color, these puzzle pieces interact with the back color pieces over on the Z chromosome. Here's the break down. If you have a bird with Z chromosomes with green puzzle pieces, and he has both blue pieces, he will be a blue backed bird. If the bird has 1 green piece and 1 yellow piece AND has two blue pieces, then the birds is said to be "Pastel", similar to the Dilute in that he won't have as bright a coloring.
Whew that was a lot of typing.
I hope the puzzle analogy helped out...
Also, I hope this helps to show why knowing "who" the parents of this bird are would help out tremendously in knowing it's genetic makeup.
Anyway, remember that we all get our genetic makeup from our parents. Half our chromosomes from our Father and the other half from our mother.
With humans, the "sex" chromosomes (the genes that determine if your going to be male or female) are denoted as X and Y. If your XX then your female and if your XY you are male.
It's slightly different with birds. In birds the sex chromosomes are denoted as Z and W. It's also the reverse of humans, if your ZZ you are male and if your ZW then your female (in birds).
In gouldians people have figured out that the genes that control head and back color's are on these sex chromosomes. You can think of a chromosome as a puzzle board, where each piece of the puzzle controls a trait that you'll see in your birds. With the Z chromosome there are two puzzle pieces we are specifically interested in. Head color and "back" color.
So on the Z gene, there are two genes (puzzle pieces) that control the birds head color and the birds back color.
Take the head color slot, there are only 2 pieces that fit here, Red Head or Black head (I'll get into how you get yellow heads later in the post, keep reading). Furthermore, the Red Head piece is so bright, that it will overpower the black head piece in any bird that has two Z chromosomes (males). This is called "dominant", meaning that if you have a male bird with his two Z chromosomes (puzzle boards) and one puzzle board has a Red Head piece and other other has a black head piece then the bird will have a red head when you look at him thru the cage bars.
Now take the back color puzzle piece slot, there are only two pieces that can fit in this slot, Green back and Yellow back (again I'll get into how you get a blue back bird later in the post). Now with these puzzle pieces Green is incompletely dominant over the yellow piece. It's bright, but not so bright as to block out the yellow completely in any bird that has 1 Green and 1 yellow (male remember cause only males have two Z's). This is how you get Dilute birds, because the bird has 1 green piece and 1 yellow piece and the green can't quite "block out" the yellow completely. So instead of a bright green back male bird, you get a bird with a duller looking back, hence the term "dilute".
Continuing on, birds, like humans have more than just our sex chromosome puzzles that make us who we are and what we look like. On these other chromosomes (puzzles) we find the blue back puzzle piece slot and on yet another puzzle we find the Yellow (orange) head puzzle piece slot.
Yellow Head - There are only two puzzle pieces that fit in this slot, Yellow head, or "normal" (normal meaning does not contain the code to get a yellow head). The interesting thing about the yellow head puzzle pieces is that you have to get one of them from your mother and one of them from your father in order for that trait to show. The other interesting thing about the yellow head piece, is that you need to have a Red Head puzzle piece over in the Z chromosome in order to display your yellow head. If you have a bird with black head puzzle pieces then your going to get a bird with a black head and yellow tipped beak. (Isn't this cool and fun!)...
Blue Backs - Similar to the yellow head, the blue back puzzle pieces only fit into another chromosome (puzzle) that is not part of the Z or W puzzles. Again there are two fitting pieces, blue back and normal. And again you have to have one each from your mom and your dad in order to display a blue back. The interesting thing is that like the head color, these puzzle pieces interact with the back color pieces over on the Z chromosome. Here's the break down. If you have a bird with Z chromosomes with green puzzle pieces, and he has both blue pieces, he will be a blue backed bird. If the bird has 1 green piece and 1 yellow piece AND has two blue pieces, then the birds is said to be "Pastel", similar to the Dilute in that he won't have as bright a coloring.
Whew that was a lot of typing.
I hope the puzzle analogy helped out...
Also, I hope this helps to show why knowing "who" the parents of this bird are would help out tremendously in knowing it's genetic makeup.
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FeatherHarp
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Fancie Flight
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FeatherHarp
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Fancie Flight
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I dont know what classification my horses would get posted under up there in the gallery, lol
Misc???? lol
I used to breed and sale Right now I am breeding to restock my own home then I will start selling the young again,
I had a petstore offer me 5.00 each for my baby zebs and societies but I told em I dont breed them,
they said they would give me a whoppin 35.00 for gouldians I was like NOT in this life time, lol
ok Ill see if i can sneak in some horse pics, lol
Misc???? lol
I used to breed and sale Right now I am breeding to restock my own home then I will start selling the young again,
I had a petstore offer me 5.00 each for my baby zebs and societies but I told em I dont breed them,
they said they would give me a whoppin 35.00 for gouldians I was like NOT in this life time, lol
ok Ill see if i can sneak in some horse pics, lol
" Nothing is harder to do gracefully than getting off your high horse"