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I was told today when we got our Black Head, Purple Chest Lady Gouldians that they could possibly have a blue baby. I looked up Blue Babies and see that they are very beautiful, both the black head and white head, but also don't understand who their parents are typically?

Can they only be produced from Blue parents, was I told something incorrect that my black may have them?

Which color birds typically can produce a blue? I would love to have a pair of those, are they very difficult to find? I have never seen one in the flesh, only on photos.

WOW..they are neat!

The blue body color in the lady gouldian is an autosomal recessive trait.

Autosomal - "Of or relating to any chromosome other than the sex chromosomes," a characteristic inherited on any gene pair other than the sex chromosomes.

Recessive - A genetic character or factor that will only be phenotypically expressed when present on both loci of a homologous pair (homozygous or double factor). E.g.: a is recessive to A because the phenotype for Aa is like AA and not like aa. -- this basically means the gene remains "hidden" unless the bird is carrying 2 copies of it.

This means that if both of your gouldians are green bodied, and if the person you bought them from was not misleading you, both your male and your female are carrying a single copy of the blue body gene. Because blue is recessive, they are not *showing* the blue coloration; they would need to have 2 copies of the blue gene in order to express the blue color. They only have 1 copy, so they cannot express the blue color, but they still have the potential to produce babies which might express the blue color, if that baby inherits 2 copies of the blue gene--one from mom and one from dad.

Statistically, 1 in 4 of your birds' chicks will be blue. The other 3 will be green, but two of those three will be like the parent birds--carrying a single copy of the blue gene, just not expressing it. The last of the 3 will have 0 copies of the blue gene and will not have the ability to produce blue young.

Unfortunately (and this is the tricky part), you cannot visually distinguish between carriers of the blue gene, and those birds which have 0 copies. So with your 3 green chicks, you won't know which 2 have a copy of the blue gene, and which 1 has no copies.

You have to breed birds which are blue (carrying 2 copies of the blue gene and physically appearing blue) or "split to blue" (like your birds, carrying 1 copy of the blue gene but not expressing it) in order to have a shot at producing blue babies. In other words, both mom and dad have to be able to contribute a blue gene to the baby in order to produce a blue baby (baby with 2 copies of the blue gene). A blue bird bred to a normal bird which is not carrying any blue copies will produce all birds like yours--appearing normal but secretly carrying a single copy of the blue gene.

A blue bird mated to a bird which is carrying a single copy of the blue gene (a "split to blue" bird, like your birds) will produce approximately 50% blue babies, and 50% split to blue babies.

A blue gouldian bred to another blue gouldian will produce 100% blue chicks, but this practice is generally avoided because it tends to produce weaker chicks.

The head and chest colors have no influence on the heritability of the blue gene. This is to say that you can produce a blue bird from parents with any head or chest color--just as long as both parents are carrying at least one copy of the blue gene.

Additionally, yellow gouldians can carry the blue gene. In fact, the way you produce a silver (white) gouldian is to create a baby which is both yellow and blue at the same time.

So in summary, to answer all of your questions:

1. The parents of blue babies can look like just about anything, since blue is a recessive ("hidden") gene.

2. Any pairing of birds where both the mom and the dad are carrying at least one copy of the blue gene can produce a blue baby. Birds which appear blue are carrying 2 copies of the gene, but they still have to be paired with a bird which is carrying at least 1 copy of the gene in order to produce blue babies. The blue baby needs to inherit one blue gene from the mom, and one from the dad in order to be blue.

3. Blues can come out of pairings of blue, pairings of green "split to blue," or (some) pairings of yellow or silver birds with any chest or head color. The only requirement for being capable of producing a blue is that both mom and dad have at least one copy of the blue gene. Blue birds are a little more pricey and less common than the green gouldians, but they are hardly difficult to find. I found one of my blues at a bird shop, and another at a bird fair. Bird expositions/fairs where finches are shown or sold is almost a guarantee that blue gouldians will be there; the only down side is that a lot of the birds are often sick or get sick from exposure at the fair.

In the end your best bet for purchasing blue gouldians is to order some from a reputable breeder(s). The good news is though that if the person who sold you your birds was honest about them, and that they are therefore both carriers of the blue gene, you could produce blue babies on your own.

Good luck and for more information (or maybe something which is easier to follow than this reply), see:

http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/gouldian.htm#body

and

http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/index.htm#terms

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions in such detail. I am amazed at the quality of information I get from this Website, you have been an amazing comfort during my quest for knowledge on how to make my birdies very happy and loved. Appreciate your reply, very much!

This info was very interesting . Genetics is not easy to swallow and sometimes is confused. Is this correct: Yellow + blue = silver (white) gouldian???????.

Yeah, that is the gist of how it works. :)

Crystal wrote:Yeah, that is the gist of how it works.

I got it .

OK in conclusion and making some questions

1. If you breed a blue gouldian with another blue the chicks are going to be 100% blue. Why this blue gouldians produce weaker chicks? what do you mean? what are the consecuences with this chicks?

2. I was reading about genetics in the forum; what means DF (double factor) and SF (single factor)? . I was analyzing the probabilities of my chicks .

1. In general, mutation birds tend to be more inbred. Inbreeding is often used to establish a valuable mutation; due to inbreeding, the blue mutation may have become "linked" with some undesireable traits. Inbreeding can lead to lots of health problems for the chicks and sometimes physical deformities, which is why it's generally recommended to "out cross" blue gouldians to normal gouldians to create split to blue babies, etc.

2. "Single factor" is a "lay persons" term for heterozygous. Heterozygous basically means that only a single copy of a gene is being carried. "Double factor" is also "slang" for homozygous, or carrying two copies of a gene.

Actual definitions:

Heterozygous: Having two different alleles for a given trait at corresponding loci on a chromosome pair.

Homozygous: Having identical genes at the corresponding loci on a chromosome pair. Usually applied to autosomal chromosomes, but can also be used to describe the sex-linked inheritance in cock birds. Usually interchangeable with "double-factor."

A more thorough explanation of the terminology: http://www.finchinfo.com/genetics/definitions.php

Thank's Crystal, like I said, genetics its not easy but I try . Let me see if I found something in spanish to understand it better . In finchinfo you made some tables or charts that we put the info and it gaves you the info, for example: 1. you made a table to make sure that the size of the cage is correct, 2. you made a table that tells us the weather (humidity) , etc. etc. and I was wondering...

It is possible to create a table that you introduce the caracteristics of your finch pair (color of head, chest and body) and it tells you how the chicks would be? That way would be more easier . For me its been a wonderfull experience reading about genetics but when youre a rookie you need more time to understand, remember and keep it in your mind . But every day we learn more and more and thats good.

OK, that's all Folks, thanks.

Hi Gaviota,

There are a few Gouldian Genetic forecasters available. My favorite is the one designed by Carlos Matos. Here is a link to the site where you can send him an email requesting the software - it is free!

http://www.geocities.com/pt_cmcm/index.htm

I have never used his progrma, but I think that program he designed uses the pictures of gouldians I made in photoshop ^.^ (the ones I made for the genetics section of my site).

He asked my permission to use them, and I said please do! It's an honor. Plus I'm pretty sure one of the language options for the program is Spanish.

I do already have tables for my gouldian genetics section, but none of them calculate the outcome for you; the prorgram TammyS linked you to is great for that, and I think trying to put a calcualtor of that sort on my site would be too complex.

I enter the link and the program is not available in spanish, Thanks.

Crystal - I noticed that the graphics were exactly the same as yours!! Wondered about that.....

Hilary

Great info Crystal... helped me alot.

Wow this gentics is hectic to wrap your head around

Sounds like the pair you bought probably came from a colony that had some blues in it, and therefore the pair that you have may carry the blue gene. If they do have a blue baby then they do both carry the blue gene and would be referred to a split-to-blue.

Because the blue color is a gene related mutation you should not breed blue to blue because it was done so much early in the development of the mutation. By doing so you are weakening the genes of the offspring,a dn the blue mutation as a whole. We do not know any reputable breeders that are will breed blue to blue for this reason. We know people that have bought blue's from blue to blue pairings and all of them have had trouble with the bird's health or had trouble breeding the birds. By breeding blue to blue you increase your odds of undesirable mutations that often have a negative impact on the resulting offspring's health. You will have stronger offspring if you breed blue to split-to-blue, blue to yellow, or blue to normal.

Just my two cents.

Sean