Best combination for genetic diversity

[saulosirds]

So I just recently acquired four more Black Bellied Fire Finches (Lagonasticta rara) and I wanted some input on the best combination for genetic diversity. I currently have 2.1 wild caught adults and 4 juveniles (2.2) from a pair. Question is, would it be better to pair up the new birds with the juveniles or pair them to themselves(all four unrelated wild caughts) and then pair their offspring up with my current group of juveniles?

I don't know a ton on genetics so if anyone knows a bunch and could help, I'd be extremely appreciative.

Thanks,
Rob

[MiaCarter]

Hi Rob!

Indeed, I would mate the 4 wild-caught unrelateds. You could do 4 different pairings of the wild caught unrelateds.

Female A x Male A = Clutch C
Female A x Male B = Clutch D
Female B x Male A = Clutch E
Female B x Male B = Clutch F

And then you could pair their offspring together....

Clutch C x Clutch F = Clutch G
Clutch D x Clutch E = Clutch H

....And then you could mate any of those birds with your juveniles.

You can't mate the wild-caughts to your juveniles straight away as that would result in a generation of cousins, assuming all the juveniles are related. (Though i know some do mate cousins. Not ideal but possible.)
So I'd definitely start by interbreeding the unrelated wild caughts.

[Sally]

Female A x Male A = Clutch C
Female A x Male B = Clutch D
Female B x Male A = Clutch E
Female B x Male B = Clutch F

And then you could pair their offspring together....

Clutch C x Clutch F = Clutch G
Clutch D x Clutch E = Clutch H

I'm confused. This looks like 4 pairs, or breeding the same female to two different males and vice versa. Or am I just not reading it right?

If there are two totally unrelated pairs, then you have Male A, Hen B, Male C, Hen D.

Male A + Hen B = Clutch AB
Male C + Hen D = Clutch CD

Now you can pair your AB babies with your CD babies, or with your current juveniles. You also still have one pair + an extra male--I'm assuming one or more of them are the parents of your juveniles. You could still be breeding that one pair. If your extra male is not related to your juveniles, you could also pair him with one of the juvenile hens. With only three pairs, you are still limited as to how many generations you can have before you are breeding somewhat related birds, so then it would be time to look for another breeder so you can swap bloodlines.

One other thought. Whenever you acquire wild caughts, you have no idea how old they are. You want to breed them as quickly as you can, because you don't know if they have just one breeding season left in them, or none, or lots. Once you have babies out of these wild caughts, then you have something with which to establish those bloodlines.

[Sally]

Also, remember with many of these finch species, you don't have to wait a year to breed the youngsters. I've been told that I am waiting too long to set youngsters up for breeding, that I should be doing that at about 6-7 months of age.

[MiaCarter]

Re: I'm confused. This looks like 4 pairs, or breeding the same female to two different males and vice versa. Or am I just not reading it right?


The latter -- breeding a single female to two different males and vice versa.

So it would be Female A, paired with Male A for the first clutch, then paired with Male B for a second clutch.

And Female B would be paired with Male B for the first clutch, then paired with Male A for the second clutch.

We need a chart! LOL

[MiaCarter]

Perhaps colors will make it clearer, if we do each individual or clutch as a color.

So from the wild caught birds, you could do.....

Female A x Male A = Clutch C
Female B x Male B = Clutch F

Female A x Male B = Clutch D
Female B x Male A = Clutch E


And then you could pair their offspring together....

Clutch C x Clutch F = Clutch G
Clutch D x Clutch E = Clutch H

....And then you could mate any of those wild-caught parents or wild-caught offspring with the non-wild-caught juveniles for even greater genetic diversity.

[Sally]

So from the wild caught birds, you could do.....

Female A x Male A = Clutch C
Female B x Male B = Clutch F

Female A x Male B = Clutch D
Female B x Male A = Clutch E


And then you could pair their offspring together....

Clutch C x Clutch F = Clutch G
Clutch D x Clutch E = Clutch H

....And then you could mate any of those wild-caught parents or wild-caught offspring with the non-wild-caught juveniles for even greater genetic diversity.

The problem I see here is that clutch C will be related to D by same mother, and to clutch E by same father. Clutch D also will be related to clutch F by same father, and so on. You can only put together two unrelated pairs to get totally unrelated babies. With many waxbills, you cannot swap around mates as easily as some species. To swap mates after only one clutch would possibly slow down your breeding season, only to result in babies that are 50% related to the first clutch.

IMO, it is much better simply to set up two pairs of wild-caughts and concentrate on bonding and breeding them. Waxbills are not easy to breed, and if a pair produces young, I would not want to break up that bond. And I wouldn't want to pair youngsters that are 50% related. Just my 2 cents.

[MiaCarter]

Sally -- Absolutely agreed.

I think those combinations would be in an ideal world. But real world isn't ideal of course!
That would assume a lack of autonomy on their part and as anyone who's had waxbills knows, they're perhaps the most autonomous, I'll-do-things-my-way-only birds on the planet!

And indeed, you couldn't breed Clutch C or F with Clutch D or E.
As indicated above, you could only do:
Clutch C x Clutch F = Clutch G
Clutch D x Clutch E = Clutch H

But if I had a few clutches from each pairing of the wild-caughts and was really determined to get genetic diversity, I might try to switch them up. It wouldn't hurt if you already had a sufficient number of offspring from the original pairings (Female A x Male A and Female B x Male B). But of course, that would require their cooperation in the matter, which doesn't always happen.

[saulosirds]

I thought this would come out confusing so let me reset and hope to clarify things:

Group A (original 2013 Imports)
Male(WC) X Female A (WC)
Produced 4 2014 CBs:
Male C(CB)
Male D(CB)
Female B(CB)
Female C(CB)
Male B(WC) (additional unpaired bird from 2013 imports)

Group B (2014 Imports)
Male E (WC)
Male F(WC)
Female D (WC)
Female E (WC)

Notes
WC= Wild Caught
CB - Captive Breed
All captive breed birds are related to the original pair (male A X female A) but not related to male B.
All wild caught birds are believed to be unrelated to any other wild caught bird.

@Sally

The argument on breeding age of waxbills is an interesting one and one that I don't think there will ever be a definitive right or wrong answer. The big concern is that young hens become egg bound easily and therefore should not be breed until X age. It would be nice to have some reliable scientific research that discusses reproductive habits of waxbills,even if it is specie or genus specific. I think you could extrapolate (only word I could come up with right now)/generalize what the reproduction cycles of most waxbills of that area would be based that research.

I would not be surprised to see a condensed or shortened period from egg to egg in wild birds but it just makes me hesitant to pair up birds that may only be six or seven months old. I also think that we have been conditioned to think that our birds are only supposed to go through a breeding cycle only once a year as opposed to every six to nine months. Living in Michigan, I see the annual cycle of reproduction but I often wonder if those cycles are different in areas of Africa that don't see the extreme seasonal changes that we deal with here?

Maybe some of our members from Africa can give us some feed back.

Rob

[Sally]

The advice I was given about starting breeding earlier with the waxbills came from one of the most well-known gurus, Roland Cristo. He has so much experience with the harder to breed species (his specialty is softbills). I think the wild birds in Africa still have an annual breeding season, as there is still a change from dry to wet seasons. But when we bring them into captivity, especially when we breed in cages, we have some control over when they breed. Many of my birds will breed at any time of the year, because I stimulate them into breeding with diet and change of day length.

There is also a lot of controversy on how long finches remain fertile. I've read articles that say they have a very short breeding span of only 2 to 3 years. I've not been doing this long enough (or keeping records long enough) so say whether this is true or not. My most prolific Strawberry male came from a breeder in Canada, and he had a closed band, so I knew his age. He fertilized eggs through age 5, but at age 6, every clutch was infertile, despite the fact that his mate was several years younger and still producing plenty of eggs. I don't know if he is the norm or the exception.

I once had two sibling Owls, a male and a female. At weaning, I placed them in a cage I had been using for breeding, and it still had a nest in it. Owls love to sleep in nests, so I didn't think anything of it when they quickly took over that nest. How cute, I thought, they are playing house. At 3-4 months of age, they produced a single baby! Fortunately, he turned out to be absolutely normal, but I was quite surprised that they could produce at that young an age.

I personally would continue to breed your original pair, pair your extra original male with one of the captive-bred hens, and then pair up your four new wild-caughts and try to breed them. If they produce, I would not break up the pairs, but let them continue to produce babies that can be paired up with your original bloodline. Only if they would not produce would I break up pairs and re-pair them with other birds. You have to be careful when working with a small number of birds to keep the gene pool from imploding. This is why it is important to have a network of other breeders, so you can source other bloodlines. Only if I cannot get any other bloodlines would I pair birds that share 50% genetics--too close IMO.

Whether finches have a breeding life of 2-3 years or 5 or more years, we still need to get them paired up and breeding as soon as we can. Experimentation takes time, I have lost entire breeding seasons switching birds around. I have also lost entire breeding seasons leaving incompatible pairs together. When you get a bonded pair that produces well, don't mess with them.