Genetic Baldness

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finchick
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Genetic Baldness

Post by finchick » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:56 pm

It appears that baldness in Gouldians is a recurring theme. Does anyone observe that there is a link between certain lines and baldness? I recall reading a thread somewhere that you should avoid using balding birds in your breeding program, which I have done.

Also, is there a difference between baldness and normal molting? It appears that some birds lose a lot of feathers at one time and others do it gradually over a longer period of time, so that they can remain aloft. Those that "blow it" all at once have barely enough to lift off the ground. While the loss of feathers in those that go through gradual molts is almost undetectable. I would guess that nature would favor those that have gradual molts as being most viable.

I'm sure it's a variety of factors, including environment, nutrition, light, temperature, hormones, etc. that control molting.

Perhaps I'm answering my own question. There are perhaps lots of reasons Gouldians go bald and I have to try different solutions...

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by finchmix22 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:38 pm

finchick
I know gouldians have a "heavy" molt, which is very hard on them and stressful. So, most breeders give them extra heat and feather fast to help the molt complete as soon as possible.
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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by finchick » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:26 pm

Would you take them out of your breeding program? I've been taking them out because I can't imagine them surviving in nature if they were "grounded" for any period of time.

Perhaps the baldness is just a feature we have to accept with domestication and selective breeding that doesn't include flight worthiness.

These choices are hard...

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by debbie276 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:32 pm

The only way I know mine are molting is by all the feathers on the ground. You can't tell they are molting by looking at them till the pin feathers appear on their head. Never are they unable to fly and/or keep warm. In nature those that have a very hard and difficult molt and unable to fly and/or stay warm would most likely not survive.
I would watch your birds carefully and any that don't molt without issue consistently I wouldn't have in my breeding program. Just like with other animals you would breed for favorable traits, you should do the same with your birds making your stock stronger.

I don't add extra heat nor any supplement other then hard boiled eggs for extra protein for feather growth.

Good luck
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long time breeder of lady gouldians:
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SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
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GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by finchick » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:39 pm

Thanks Debbie. I've been trying to adjust light, diet, heat, noise (I figured stress could be a trigger), etc. and came down to simply not wanting the baldness that can take months to recover in my breeding program. It reminds me of being told to keep a hat on during the winter because you're losing the most heat from the top of your head.

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by dutch » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:22 pm

debbie276....don't you have a heater in your aviary in winter?
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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by debbie276 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:12 pm

dutch
The first couple years I had a heater outside keeping the coop above 55 degrees Fahrenheit. I discovered the birds aren't so delicate when the owls kept playing in the snow. Now they don't get heat but the coop stays above freezing.
Debbie
long time breeder of lady gouldians:
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by dutch » Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:29 pm

debbie276.....that's brilliant

Your birds are real champions playing out in the snow
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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by MiaCarter » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:23 am

To answer one of the questions: if there's a difference between baldness and normal moulting.

I'd say absolutely.
Baldness shouldn't occur in a healthy bird.
You may see thin spots during a heavy moult, but never baldness.

True baldness occurs as a result of nutritional deficiencies, skin issues or plucking (and follicle damage from plucking. Usually another bird as they can't reach their own head/neck, where gouldian balding is most common.)

Whereas moulting is a healthy, seasonal process.

I would never breed a bird who's actively having issues with baldness. (Exception may be baldness due to another's plucking. But even then, I'd want them to grow their feathers back before stressing their body with a clutch of babies.)

Really, with the wrong diet and care, even the most well-bred specimens can struggle with baldness. That's situational, not genetic, so I don't see any reason for removing them from a breeding program permanently.

But if you have a weak bird who's chronically unwell and suffers from chronic skin problems and other ailments, then certainly, I would not want that bird to reproduce.
Humum to....
13 Zebra Finches....and 2 squeeps!
3 Society Finches
6 Gouldians
1 Weaver
1 Pintail Whydah
2 Cockatiels
2 Parakeets

....along with 1 MinPin, 1 Pug, 1 JRT, 1 Yorkie, 2 Chihuahuas and 15 cats.


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debbie276
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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by debbie276 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:04 pm

Really, with the wrong diet and care, even the most well-bred specimens can struggle with baldness. That's situational, not genetic, so I don't see any reason for removing them from a breeding program permanently.
With that said, if you can't give proper nutritional diet and care the birds should not be breeding.
There are also birds from good healthy stock that don't absorb the nutrients in the diet like the others for whatever reason which also should be removed from your breeding program. Then there are confirmation issues such as leggy, flat head and the wrong stance which also should not be bred if you want the best. :wink:
Debbie
long time breeder of lady gouldians:
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by finchick » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:28 pm

Thanks Debbie and Mia: Totally agree about providing the best of diet and care for the birds, otherwise we shouldn't be doing this.

Some of these challenges (like balding) can be a little pricey to solve, but trying things and learning as I go along has been part of the challenge. From almost having my own health food pantry for the birds to experimenting with just about every grain and produce that I can get my hands on, knowing that there can exist good healthy stock that simply don't (or can't) absorb the nutrients is important.

Admittedly, I try many things that I learn on this website. I pay special attention to those of you who clearly have been doing this for a long time and have gone through similar trials.

So again, thanks.

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by nixity » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:38 am

Baldness shouldn't occur in a healthy bird is only a slightly accurate statement.

Unfortunately - there is more to consider than general health as far as the option to retain or discard a bird from one's breeding regimen.

First of all - and probably most importantly: diet.
Second - environment.

Baldness doesn't occur at the fault of the genetics of the bird, but often as a result of the diet or environment in which the bird is exposed.

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MiaCarter
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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by MiaCarter » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:24 am

nixity - Agreed.

I was sort of lumping health, genetics and diet together, as health isn't really achievable without good diet and good genetics.

So you're right, more accurately stated, we have several causes of baldness....
- genetic (e.g. alopecia, keratin production issues, etc.)
- diet/malnutrition (perhaps the most common)
- environment (e.g. plucking, perhaps the second most common)
- acquired illness (e.g. PBFD, mites, etc.)

And all of these stand apart from moulting.

I do stand by my original statement: there's no reason a healthy bird -- a well-bred bird with good genetics, fed a healthy diet, and free of illness/parasites -- should be balding.
But put that healthy bird with a plucker or another unhealthy environment and you'll have a problem.

And, of course, a bird with a genetically-robust background could certainly develop a spontaneous illness like alopecia or an absorption disorder. Most with these problems generally have a genetic component, if only a genetic predisposition, but certainly not all. (And having genetically strong parents doesn't necessarily mean the offspring will be genetically strong. Mutations happen, some good, some not so good.)

The cases of gouldian balding I've seen were virtually all from birds who came to me as rescues or from another home where they weren't fed a healthy, varied diet. (Virtually all because a couple cases involved another bird plucking the bald bird or parasites.)
But for most, a bit of Feather Fast, a good diet and some kelp granules had them looking great in fairly short order. So I'm a firm believer that most cases can be attributed to malnutrition.

I think most moulting problems can be attributed to the same -- poor or imbalanced diet. That and stress.
One thing I have noticed though is that you've got to watch these bald birds very carefully. I offer a varied diet, with lots of fresh foods. And for a long time, I assumed all my birds had a good diet. Not true! Each bird is an individual and some have a very selective diet in terms of what they're actually eating. So that's why I'm a big proponent of Feather Fast, as it helps those who might otherwise have problems.
So if you've got a bald bird or a bird who just seems generally unhealthy, make it a point to watch them eat or video them if they're shy. It can be very telling! (In fact, I'd videoed some of my finches once to catch a plucker. I didn't catch a plucker, but noticed that the chronically unwell bird was more or less on a seed-only diet!)
Humum to....
13 Zebra Finches....and 2 squeeps!
3 Society Finches
6 Gouldians
1 Weaver
1 Pintail Whydah
2 Cockatiels
2 Parakeets

....along with 1 MinPin, 1 Pug, 1 JRT, 1 Yorkie, 2 Chihuahuas and 15 cats.


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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by lovezebs » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:27 am

Very interesting thread.

This comes at a time, when I have just acquired a little boy, who has an obvious problem with molting (?)

At this stage, I have no idea, if his problem is due to stress, plucking, diet, lack of proper lighting, genetics, or what.

All I know for certain, is that he comes from a Pet Shop. When I initially saw him, he was magnificent. Now, he's apparently 'stuck in molt' or so I was told, possibly plucked by another bird.
I have him in quarantine, and have started him on a diet rich in proteins and greens, added to a good seed mixture. I also add a good mix of grit, into which I add crushed egg shells, grated cuttle bone, grated mineral block, and grated iodine block (this way, he gets to pick and choose what his poor little body needs). Along with that, I add a liquid multi vitamine to drinking water one day, and a liquid vit D, on ulternate days.

I want to see how he does on this diet for several weeks, to see if it makes a difference to his problem, and if I can kick start normal feather growth.

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Re: Genetic Baldness

Post by MiaCarter » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:51 am

lovezebs --- I'll be curious to see how your little guy does!

My impression was that it was a plucking situation, just based on the location of the bald spots and the fact that those spots are bald, bald, bald (which is more often characteristic of plucking vs. moulting.)

The stuck in moult birds I've seen had a pause in the moulting process, with some thin spots (like the center of the abdomen) and some obvious areas of scruffy old feathers that had yet to be replaced. But not the bare skin baldness that this guy has.

My guess would be that the poor diet, stress of the store environment and perhaps stressful pairings with other plucky birds caused him to go through a slow moult and perhaps he hasn't grown back those plucked feathers due to all those factors. (Or maybe they were just being continually plucked out. Certainly possible.)

My money is on a healthy diet, a loving, quiet home and a bit of Feather Fast and he'll be like new!

Whatever the case, I'll be interested to see how he makes out! He's a cutie!
Humum to....
13 Zebra Finches....and 2 squeeps!
3 Society Finches
6 Gouldians
1 Weaver
1 Pintail Whydah
2 Cockatiels
2 Parakeets

....along with 1 MinPin, 1 Pug, 1 JRT, 1 Yorkie, 2 Chihuahuas and 15 cats.


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www.PetFinchFacts.com

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